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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
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4th-Jan-2011 02:03 pm
Thinky thougts
I'm still holidaying on the Central Coast of NSW. Best holiday I've had in ages. Angst free and very relaxing.

Met up with the lovely ruby_jelly. So nice to meet someone as mad as me. (Ha! She's awesome...*g* ) Great to chat about the show on common ground - rather than trying to convince someone else how additive and amazing the show is.

Though we did ponder something we couldn't answer. Maybe someone can shed some light...



What was YED's overall plan in the scheme of....well...everything?? As in, if it was always the 5 year plan of Kripke's for Sam to become Lucifer's vessel and Dean to become Michael's how did the YED gathering "special children" feature into this? Was the YED preparing Sam (or potentially another special child) for this role? Or was YED a completely different story arc that didn't feature in Sam's final "destiny"?

I haven't read much on Kripke's ideas from the very beginning. I know he wasn't keen on the Special Children story line (nor The Roadhouse) and killed that idea off at the end of S2 but did he every talk about how the YED's story line feature in Lucifer's??

In many ways the YED is still important because Meg is his daughter. So the connection is still very strong. I wonder if there is a lot more to Meg then really mets the eye (man, I hope so! That would be awesome...)



Also...



I'm thinking if Sam scratches at the "wall" instead of Sam going nuts- tearing his psyche apart, which I think is the suggestion - we'll see an emergence of Demon!Sam.

Show keeps giving us glimpses and suggestions of Evil!Sam (I think because Jared plays it very well...) , but never really going to whole way. So I'm thinking this might be a chance to really give us a full on Evil!Sam. After 120 years in hell is soul may have turned. (How long did Ruby say it takes to turn evil? Was it 300 years? Maybe Sam turned quicker because he already had a potentially darker side...)

I HOPE NOT!! I really, really don't want to see a fully blown evil!Sam. I know a lot of fans (some fans??) would like that and it could make for some interesting television (true Sam v Dean) but I DO. NOT. WANT.

I get very upset seeing Sam doing mean things (like lock that demon!girl in the car boot in 5.22) and that smirk will forever kill me... :(

But I have a feeling that this is what they might do because I can't see them making Sam go "mad" (though that would be interesting too..). Nor do I see them return the bros back to their status quo (whatever that is these days..). Maybe initially we'll have some run of the mill saving people hunting things and Sam will be fine on the surface but underneath something will be stirring... methinks... EVOL!

I am unspoiled for future eps so that's purely speculation. Nor have I read much. So that might be what everyone is thinking anyway..




Can you tell I'm in the mood for some show chat?! I think meeting RJ stirred that up and also I AM MISSING MY SHOW!!
Comments 
4th-Jan-2011 06:11 am (UTC)

I was always under the impression that YED was all about grooming Sam to free Lucifer, and all that talk about him leading the masses was meant AS Lucifer, as his vessel. I think the evil side was always under the imression that Lucifer would win the big showdown, but I dunno, it seems like they weren't very well-informed...didn't Ruby say that she had to keep her agenda secret from pretty much everyone?

Holy crap, I hope we don't get an evil!Sam. Jared would rock it but I definitely miss old-school Sam and Dean and their brotherly connection.
4th-Jan-2011 08:16 am (UTC)
and all that talk about him leading the masses was meant AS Lucifer, as his vessel.

Ah yes...that makes sense. It suggests that YED was aware of the plan for Sam to become Lu's vessel.

And yes - I'm not sure all the demons "get the Newsletter", so they are not aware of what each other are up to.

I definitely miss old-school Sam and Dean and their brotherly connection.

Oh me too. I think they've done the "Sam and Dean in opposition" too much. I really want them to be back on track as soul brothers.
Thanks.
xx
4th-Jan-2011 06:21 am (UTC)
Funny - i was only thinking about the Special Children plot over the weekend. I think Kripke did change bits of this over time. For example i dont think dean was originally(or even as late as S4) intended to be Mciahel's vessel. Kripke hadn't palnned on angels, and even said that if Cas hadn't worked out or been well-recieved he'd have dumped them.

My take on it: Lucifer told Azazel to get onto recruiting Special Children. I think the strongest was going to be the one to open the Devil's gate and elad the demons in breaking the seasl, free Lucifer and then be his vessel. Some of the plan had to be kept secret bc presumably Lilith wouldnt have been too keen on being killed, rather than ruling post-Apocalypse with Lucifer.

I don't think Meg was literally Azazel's daughter, i think that was just terms they used (or kinky shit they had going on).

I am unsure of where they'll go with Sam this season: bad or mad seem like the options!

Anyway i've rambled enough. Obviously I need some RL fangirl time to get this out of my system!

4th-Jan-2011 08:26 am (UTC)
It's interesting to go back and look at how story lines in S1 effected or played a part in what happened in S5.

I think your take makes sense, especially re Lilith.

I don't think Meg was literally Azazel's daughter

oh. I've been thinking of it literally, especially the way YED said to Dean "you think you're the only one who has a family". But it might be more as a "family of demons". Maybe Alistair would have considered Dean one of his "sons" if he has succeeded in turning him into a fully fledged demon. I can go with that.

Obviously I need some RL fangirl time to get this out of my system!

I love me some RL fangirl time. Nothing like nutting out the deeps of our show. I wish I could have more of it. I keep trying to convert my friends...

<333

4th-Jan-2011 07:15 am (UTC)
So glad you're enjoying your holiday time =) ♥
4th-Jan-2011 08:27 am (UTC)
Hey sweetie! It has been wonderful. I'm feeling refreshed. And I still have 3 weeks to go one I get back to Perth... \o/

*hugs*
4th-Jan-2011 08:44 am (UTC)
What was YED's overall plan in the scheme of....well...everything?

I have heard that Sam was always intended to be possessed by Lucifer - and that was an idea they were seeding in season three, so presumably that was Azazel's endgame, despite the changes to the plot.

Lucifer instructed Azazel to find a child in Lucifer Rising, so that seems to be how the writers decided to resolve it. The angels talk about creating lineages: the Campbell/Winchester line, but also others. Azazel was probably just looking for heroic lineages. How I'm not exactly sure, but he knew Mary counted when he saw her.

You can see how tenuous it was by his attack on the baby in Salvation - apparently he infected every baby he could find, waited for them to be old enough to assess, then went round again. It makes sense: even if he got the right family he couldn't be sure he'd got the right kid - what if he'd met Mary four years earlier and won the right to infect Dean? I suppose demons have the time to spare, but ye gods - that could have gone on for centuries.

I suspect Azazel's intended plan was relatively simple: he had Jake right where he wanted him. He was isolated, scared, up to his eyeballs in magic, had done several things he probably wouldn't be able to live with and was ripe for manipulation. Grab him, find Lilith and figure out how to break seals. Sam came with a variety of friends and family attached, his conscience reasonably clean and no desire to end the world so Azazel had to start all over again. Then, of course, he died leaving a whole bunch of ill-informed demons standing around asking if anybody knew why they were supposed to follow the human. And this is why keeping secrets never works well for anyone on this show. :)

I'm thinking if Sam scratches at the "wall" instead of Sam going nuts- tearing his psyche apart, which I think is the suggestion - we'll see an emergence of Demon!Sam.

It's possibile, but I do wonder about the mechanics. Ruby never did say how long it would take - 'centuries' - and it's unclear whether she meant that from an earth or Hell perspective. But we've never knowingly met a young demon. Azazel was implicitly around for ages. Alistair claimed to have last visited earth during WWII so presumably died well before that. Crowley died sometime in the 17th century. Ruby unhelpfully says she was from 'when the plague was big', but I assume they mean the 14th century outbreak. We've never met a demon who claimed to have been born in the 20th century.

I suppose Lucifer could make a demon of Sam - but I'm unclear on why. He made Lilith for a purpose. She was his first soldier. She was also his failsafe - if he was imprisoned, she could release him. Lucifer still has an army - Hell self-perpetuates quite well. While he is trapped again, the rules on that changed - the horsemen's rings work, as does whatever method Crowley used. There's no advantage to making Sam a demon. To torture him, I suppose - but demons seem more durable than humans. They can be hurt, but they're more blase about pain; they don't even seem miserable - angry or afraid, maybe, but not broken. Demons look a lot less fun to poke than humans.

And demon souls are generally black - Sam was glowing. Surely if his nature had changed there would be some evidence of that?

They could still go the evil route - but I hope not. What makes Sam interesting is the struggle. Demons try to adopt him! Monsters gravitate to him! He'd like to do the right thing, if someone would tell him what that is! He keeps trying and it keeps backfiring! Flat out evil is boring.

It's one of the problems with the toe-in-the-water approach they took to evil-Sam with the soulless plotline. I'm not criticising that, because as a means of emphasising the enormity of Sam's sacrifice without telling one of their lead actors to take six months off it succeeded very well. But as long-term characterisation it doesn't work. He's unsympathetic, and easy to dismiss.

Evil characters are fun in small doses. They show up, they create enough chaos to move the plot along, say a few terrible but funny things, and then they go away again. If Sam is evil, you're left with Dean standing around with no one to talk to.

Also - happy new year. :)
4th-Jan-2011 12:24 pm (UTC)
Hi there!

Thanks for your insights. The Azazel story line makes more sense now, reading yours and the above comments on it.

Then, of course, he died leaving a whole bunch of ill-informed demons standing around asking if anybody knew why they were supposed to follow the human

Yeah. It's interesting to witness the demons being as ill informed as humans often are.

I'm guilty of not following the whole demon and angel story lines as well as I should. I think I focus on Sam and Dean and let the other stuff wash over me. And then when I stop to think about it I realise I've missed something. :)

And yes, yes... I can totally buy your reasoning for not making Sam evil. I mean, if they did there would have to be some way back for him. It wouldn't be a final scenario - just a way to leave us hanging until next season. But as I say - I really hope not.

I would say if there was a reason for Lu to turn Sam into a demon it would be purely to mess with him. Or maybe to have him "on side". If Lu could make an ally of Sam then maybe Sam back on earth could find a way to release him again. Not that I think that will happen either. They've already done it. Sam would be stopped before that happened or something.

I suppose I'm playing my own devil's advocate here. Trying to look at what Show might do, no what I want it to do. I'm still not convinced they'll leave the idea of evil!Sam alone now. (unfortunately).

But I sincerely hope they do because I desperately want some Sam story now. A struggle to overcome his time in hell at some point might be interesting but because they have already done that with Dean I'm not sure they'll take that route again with Sam. Though I suppose he's a different type of character to Dean so how he copes may be quite different.

But ... *shrugs* who knows. Whatever happens I will be damn glad when it comes back. I have no expectations or particular hopes for the rest of the season. I mean, I would love to see the boys working together as they have done in the past. Building their trust etc. But show always finds a way of shattering my hopes for that, so I'm not even going to think about what I would really like to see...*g*

Happy New Year hun. Here's to it being a great one. :)
4th-Jan-2011 02:58 pm (UTC)
Yeah. It's interesting to witness the demons being as ill informed as humans often are.

It's something I like - no matter how powerful these beings are, they're all just people. The demons are just humans trapped in a horror story. The angels aren't any better, although they appear to be trapped in a particularly nasty version of Nineteen Eighty-Four. No one knows what's going on and everyone's just making it up. The ones who are yelling about plans and fate are bad precisely because they've decided that it doesn't matter - they get to decide for everyone else anyway. :)

Or maybe to have him "on side". If Lu could make an ally of Sam then maybe Sam back on earth could find a way to release him again.

But would that work? Lilith was loyal, but would Sam be? Being a demon doesn't mean being loyal to Lucifer - Crowley wasn't. Azazel grouched about the ones who'd lost faith and just lately they've been distinguishing between Lucifer's people and the ones who sided with Crowley.

Demons remember who they were - they can tell you when they were from, the pair in Sin City implied they'd been in love when alive and Crowley's animosity toward his son seems to date from life, since it's mutual. I can imagine a demonic version of Sam having an evil scheme of his own, but wouldn't he hate and fear Lucifer even more than Crowley did?

I'm still not convinced they'll leave the idea of evil!Sam alone now. (unfortunately).

You may be right, but on the other hand (If you're playing devil's advocate, what am I? :) ), haven't they done that three times now? The tail end of season four - wherein Sam's conscience and ethics are in place, but through a combination of extreme stress and misinformation he does things he doesn't think are good at all. The Lucifer incident, which they play out in The End, in which Sam crashes and lets evil have its way both with him and with the world. All of season six so far - in which Sam acts without conscience or remorse, is a self-confessed killer and has proven perfectly capable of harming everyone close to him. I just wonder where else there is to go with evil.

But I sincerely hope they do because I desperately want some Sam story now. A struggle to overcome his time in hell at some point might be interesting but because they have already done that with Dean I'm not sure they'll take that route again with Sam.

Possibly - although I wonder if Hell is the point. Wasn't that what Brady said - that Sam's Hell is here? Dean's issues were never about pain, and so far we've been told (although of course that may change) that pain was the sum total of Sam's experience. Dean couldn't stand what he'd done - and that's what they've thrown at Sam. There are parallels - they always reflect off each other - but also important differences. If nothing else, Dean had privacy. The angels and demons knew things - but they mostly kept quiet. It meant he was able to choose when to speak and what to say. only he knew what was going on in his head - and there were pros and cons with regard to the way he handled it.

Sam's tragedy just played out right in the open - and the only one who didn't know about it was him. Assuming he remembers, he could only be coming to grips with his own thoughts and actions right now. I'm guessing that makes Sam's brain a very scary place to be right now. And there's potentially a lot of story fodder in dealing with it.

It's not that I don't think the wall in Sam's memory is important. I'm pretty sure that's a great big gun on the wall that they're going to want to take down to play with. I'm just not sure they intend to use it that way. Of course, I'm probably wrong. Mostly, I just want to know what happens next. :)

I mean, I would love to see the boys working together as they have done in the past. Building their trust etc. But show always finds a way of shattering my hopes for that, so I'm not even going to think about what I would really like to see...*g*

*nods* I don't know, they tend to hit their stride about three-quarters of the way through a season, after they've both fallen down in screaming hysterics, so I'm stubbornly holding out hope. :)

Gah - I'm sorry, I'll talk all day if I'm allowed. It's a compulsion.
4th-Jan-2011 10:30 pm (UTC)
Hee! I marvel at how much you remember. I remember a lot of images (probably due to the amount of times I see the footage when editing it) but I had forgotten a lot of the dialogue - some of it quite important to seeing how everything fits in.

although they appear to be trapped in a particularly nasty version of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Ooooh, what a nice comparison.

But would that work? Lilith was loyal, but would Sam be?

Yeah - I agree. Would make no sense for them to take that route. *phew*

It's interesting about the demons remembering their history. See, something else that has been playing on my mind (yep - I like to blab too..*g*) is whether the show will give us a demon who will go from "evil" to "good". They toyed with the idea with Ruby - in that we weren't sure if she was on the side of "good" and gave us the possibility that that could happen. Of course it didn't and we are yet to see that they can be trusted. But, I've been wondering if Meg might be a character they may "turn". We've seen angels who are supposedly "good" be downright nasty... so I'm wondering....

haven't they done that three times now?

Yes! So lets hope that's it.

I'm guessing that makes Sam's brain a very scary place to be right now. And there's potentially a lot of story fodder in dealing with it.

And I suppose this is what I am hoping for. I'll be interested to see what they allow him to remember. Will he remember everything he did without a soul? Or will getting his soul back mean forgetting all that. I am hoping he remembers, even though it will probably mean guilty!Sam.

I think the wall will be interesting in that we may get little "leaks" every now and then. Crazy!Sam / losing it Sam maybe. No idea of course. Not sure if this wall is something that could be thin or worn down or broken and rebuilt. They may play with this idea also.

so I'm stubbornly holding out hope.

Hee! We can do that together then!!





5th-Jan-2011 11:22 am (UTC)
Hee! I marvel at how much you remember. I remember a lot of images (probably due to the amount of times I see the footage when editing it) but I had forgotten a lot of the dialogue - some of it quite important to seeing how everything fits in.

Ah, I'm just backwards. I'm good with words, but if they're doing something clever with lighting or camera angles, somebody is probably going to have to explain it to me. :)

It's interesting about the demons remembering their history. See, something else that has been playing on my mind (yep - I like to blab too..*g*) is whether the show will give us a demon who will go from "evil" to "good". They toyed with the idea with Ruby - in that we weren't sure if she was on the side of "good" and gave us the possibility that that could happen. Of course it didn't and we are yet to see that they can be trusted. But, I've been wondering if Meg might be a character they may "turn". We've seen angels who are supposedly "good" be downright nasty... so I'm wondering....

That's really interesting. I keep wondering what would make one count as 'good' - or even really what makes them 'bad'. I mean, in practice they're clearly destructive and dangerous, but why is a bit difficult to define. They can be clever and even thoughtful. They can be loyal, possibly even love. Or they can be devious and treacherous. They're very diverse and very human - right up to the moment when pretty much all of them will decide to eviscerate an entire town for fun.

We can't call Ruby 'good' because she was working against humanity. But taken on her own terms, as an agent deep undercover trying to strike a decisive blow for her own people, she's actually pretty heroic. It is a bit murky, because her cover required her to attack her own people, but you could tell a story about a human in a similar situation and paint her as a hero. Crowley did work for humanity, insofar as he had a common cause with them. As far as fighting Lucifer was concerned, he was pretty trustworthy - it was just that, beyond that, he felt no loyalty at all.

The best thing I can think of to define a 'good' demon would be one who recognised that there isn't much reasonable distinction between humans and demons. Because that looks to me to be where they cross the line - their relationships with each other are complex, but humans are just there to be possessed, killed or manipulated. They have opened the door for that, by indicating that demons can be killed by destroying their remains - hammering home that they're really just ghosts who've quite literally been through hell. But I haven't seen anyone who looked like stepping through it. Meg could - she has the advantage of longevity, and the sort of complexity of character that comes with that, but they haven't really laid the groundwork that would lead me to expect that of her.

And I suppose this is what I am hoping for. I'll be interested to see what they allow him to remember. Will he remember everything he did without a soul? Or will getting his soul back mean forgetting all that. I am hoping he remembers, even though it will probably mean guilty!Sam.

Yes, probably. Silly man even manages to feel bad about things other people did. :) But I hope he remembers too. I think he has the right to know, and if he doesn't remember who could possibly tell him? Dean can only give him the tail end of it, and while Samuel could tell him more I doubt he knows everything either. He's already got a wall in his brain, he doesn't need any more nasty surprises.

Hee! We can do that together then!!

Onwards, with unquenchable optimism! :)
4th-Jan-2011 06:22 pm (UTC)
Oh god! I hope not! I love evil Sam but ENOUGH ALREADY.
4th-Jan-2011 09:46 pm (UTC)
HERE HERE!!

I have no idea why I thought that...it's definitely something I don't want. I'm sincerely hoping Show can move on from that now.

xx
4th-Jan-2011 06:55 pm (UTC)
I'm glad you're having a good time! :D

Man, I've been thinking about that connection a lot, too. My personal canon is that YED knew some of it, but not in great detail, and that the deal he made with Mary, the first feeding of demon blood and surrounding him with demons somehow featured into preparing him for Lucifer. Or something. *rofl*
4th-Jan-2011 09:59 pm (UTC)
Yeah - I'm thinking he must have been in league with Lu, preparing a chosen child for Lu's vessel. Well, that Lu had given him orders maybe to "go forth and find me a suitable vessel"...

I'd say Sam and Dean played right into their hands when Dean sold his soul leaving Sam vulnerable enough to believe Ruby.

xx
9th-Jan-2011 01:03 pm (UTC)
I'd say Sam and Dean played right into their hands when Dean sold his soul leaving Sam vulnerable enough to believe Ruby.

Which, now that you're pointing it out, might have been part of the plan, too? To get Dean down there by having the YED go after Sam/the family as a whole? Ah, IDK. *lol*
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