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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
Curiosities in 8.17 
23rd-Mar-2013 07:42 pm
Geeking Out
Jerry is so good to us...

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He had some interesting responses to the pattern. Most people looking at the far wall and seeing perhaps a code of some sort (I really hoped it was that!). Turns out it's those crosses the windows make. @superwiki picked it up. :)

I like the way the lighting emphasising those crosses (now we know they are there they stand out!). I love that this kind of thought is put into the sets.

8.17 naomi's office


These shots are awesome:

Dead Deans. Great CGI.

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These high angle shots make my nether's quiver and touches me right where my bathing suit goes.

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I was curious about that lighting pattern on the floor. They can't create that without having a pattern like that somewhere above them. Of course I had to check it out and...of course that pattern is there! (they've really thought this gorgeous set out). Very cool!

8.13 ceiling

I wonder if that's "natural" light - like a sky light or if it's part of the lighting in the bunker. Either way - it's beautiful. Adore that table!

Speaking of beautiful...

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I love how the music ended just short of the actual end. Created a poignancy I felt. I like that it's clearly autumn (err, fall), maybe symbolising a change.


Now, speaking of music. I have to chat about the title of the episode. Usually it's pretty obvious what the title is referring to. They mostly use song, movie, book or TV show titles in some form. I've been pondering this title because it didn't immediately leap out.

The song is used beautifully at the end. I assume Robbie had that in mind all along, but I wondered who and what he was referring to.

The lyrics that were used in the episode:

... is the undisputed truth
But I have to have things my own way to keep me in my youth
Like a ship without an anchor, like a slave without a chain
Just the thought of those sweet ladies sends a shiver through my veins
And I will go on shining, shining like brand new
I'll never look behind me, my troubles will be few
Goodbye stranger it's been nice, hope you find your paradise
Tried to see your point of view, hope your dreams will all come true
Goodbye Mary, goodbye Jane, will we ever meet again
Feel no sorrow, feel no shame, come tomorrow, feel no pain
Sweet devotion (Goodbye Mary), it's not for me (Goodbye Jane)
Just give me motion (Will we ever)


I figure we can take them in many different ways. When I heard "ship without and anchor, slave without a chain" I felt it was directly relating to Sam and Dean and how Dean will be Sam's anchor during the trials. It also made me think of Sam promising Dean he isn't going to lie anymore - like a goodbye to an old habit.

I think it could also refer to Cas. He's been a "stranger" so many times during the series - "so which Cas are you now?". He said he was back to just him so maybe it's about saying goodbye to his past. Time to move on. If I thought he wasn't going to be any more eps this season then it might signal a good-bye until next year (I can't imagine them solving the demon and angel tablet story line in 6 episodes). I don't know if he's back or not. I'm not spoilerphobe about it, I just haven't read anything.

I think the Feel no sorrow, feel no shame, come tomorrow, feel no pain, Sweet devotion (Goodbye Mary), it's not for me (Goodbye Jane) fits nicely with him. Can I push it and say Mary and Jane are Sam and Dean? *ducks* probably not.

Probably, mostly importantly, it was good-bye to Meg. Meg has been a bit of a strange these past few years. Starting off in one persona (pure evil), ending on another . She's the longest running secondary character (she appeared even before Bobby) so it might be her good-bye song.

Whatever it meant I think it was a great choice. Nice to see music being used in the show like this.


Finally, I love the smile Dean gives Sam when Sam's suggested he spend some time with Miss October. That whole scene was a sheer delight.

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Thanks show for being awesome.
Comments 
23rd-Mar-2013 11:54 am (UTC)
I loved all the pretty in this episode (and for once I don't just mean the boys...). The final scenes were my faves - yes the aerial view of the bus and all the autumnal colour was striking but I'd been captivated by all the sparkly lights in the car scene before that.

I never picked up on the cross symbolism in Naomi's office though, that's kind of awesome that they did that deliberately. I do LOVE the SPN creative team for all their attention to detail!
23rd-Mar-2013 02:17 pm (UTC)
So much pretty! The sparkly lights in the car were gorgeous too. I love how they light it according to what's being said. Both boys looked a little softer than usual - or something. I dunno. It just seems to cosy.

I hadn't picked up on the cross either. Twitter has been fabulous for allowing the crew to fill us in on details. :)
23rd-Mar-2013 01:09 pm (UTC)
Wow, I absolutely did NOT see the cross motif until just now. Outstanding! Oh, Show . . .

it was good-bye to Meg.

Meg. *sigh* I was really, really hoping that we'd have Meg all the way up to the final season. Maybe they'll make up for it by briefly bringing John back in some manner, but I kinda doubt it. I hate how they're just . . . erasing . . . all the characters from the early years. On the other hand, if, in the final episodes of the final season, we're left with just Sam, Dean, and Baby against the world, as it was in the first few episodes of S1, now THAT would be a perfect full-circle revisitation, and I could definitely live with Show ending in that manner. (Still mad about Meg, though.) ;)

I love the smile Dean gives Sam when Sam's suggested he spend some time with Miss October. That whole scene was a sheer delight.

Scenes like that one are why I watch Show. Why I keep watching Show. :)

Overall, this was a visually gorgeous episode. I've always liked the scenes in Naomi's office because they remind me of 2001, and EVERYTHING in the Bat Cave tends to shiver my timbers. The last shot of the bus and the lovely Fall colors was pretty, but more than a little confusing -- unless Show has been doing more time-jump shenanigans, it's supposed to be SPRING in North America right now. So all those pretty fall colors, as gorgeous as they are, should not exist. My favorite visual was the magical ("sparkly" as amberdreams says above) scene of the guys in the car at the end. Second place is the pullback with all the dead!Deans, not necessarily because I like it (nooo, Dean!), but because it carried such a massive emotional punch.
25th-Mar-2013 11:02 am (UTC)
The crosses are cool yeah?!

And yeah - it's hard to see characters constantly being removed but I have long accepted that this is part of the 'verse. I think it IS about Sam and Dean and Baby against the world. They touch and are touched by many other lives, but in the end it's jus them. For me, if they give a character a good send off (like they did with Bobby, Jo and Ellen then I'm pretty ok about it).

Though it would have been great to see some more Meg - especially when they finally seem to have got a handle on her.

I did wonder what time of the month it was in the SPN timeline. It's autumn where I am so I'm going to accept that they live in an Aus climate in...um..America. Or something magical like that...;D

xx
23rd-Mar-2013 01:13 pm (UTC)
That smile Dean gives Sam in the Batcave is one of my favourite moments in the episode, it is only surpassed by the brothers' conversation in the car at the end. I always love how much they say just by looking at each other. ♥
25th-Mar-2013 10:56 am (UTC)
It's so true! It's so easy to see the connection the Js have with each other. That scene was so comfortable between them. I definitely think they play this type of brother bond better than the fighting one. *happy sigh*
23rd-Mar-2013 01:35 pm (UTC)
Ooh. Lovely images. I'm still a bit in love with the Bat Cave. I want a Bat Cave. :)

As for the song - I wonder if part of the idea might be the characters saying goodbye to themselves. It's more applicable to Castiel and Meg, I think, because it's more their episode, but it goes all the way around.

Naomi kept insisting that she'd 'fixed' Castiel. And in a way she had. We were looking at the Castiel of season four - the man who followed orders just because, who might think it was morally wrong to betray you but would do it anyway if his superiors said so. It's a temptation as much as it is conditioning to go back to that. In fighting free of it, he leaves that behind forever. In taking the tablet away from Dean he also abandons his most common coping mechanism: to use Dean's opinions as a measure of what is right. Whoever he is now, he must be a stranger to the person he used to be.

Meg lamented the loss of her past certainty - she used to know what she was and what she was after. Now she recognises how morally grey the world is. And while she's worked with them before out of necessity, here she defends herself as being on Sam and Dean's side and tries to live up to that part - talking sympathetically with Sam, volunteering information and ultimately dying for the cause. She's been in limbo since Lucifer fell, and only here does she really break her ties with her old self and try to start over.

For Sam and Dean, yeah, there's trying to give up their old coping mechanisms. But there's also, I think, a wistful letting go of might-have-beens.

Goodbye Mary, goodbye Jane, will we ever meet again
Feel no sorrow, feel no shame, come tomorrow, feel no pain


That is, I think, largely Meg and Sam's 'unicorn' discussion. They're both talking about loves and lives they might have had if things had gone differently. Meg knows she's going to die when she sends Sam to save her angel; Sam thinks he's probably going to die because of the trials. So they're getting oblivion instead.

And, um, yeah. I'll stop over-analysing things now. :)
23rd-Mar-2013 02:28 pm (UTC)
"In taking the tablet away from Dean he also abandons his most common coping mechanism: to use Dean's opinions as a measure of what is right." Good point. I had been thinking that Cas looked happier than he has done - well, ever, and I felt that guarding the tablet was giving him a purpose he hasn't had since he was sent to haul Dean out of Hell. And that time, he was serving the layers of Angel bureaucracy - this time, I think he could legitimately think God has given him a purpose. Maybe that is why the tablet lit up when Cas picked it up...
23rd-Mar-2013 03:15 pm (UTC)
*butting in*

Oh I like this thought. Quite a bit.

23rd-Mar-2013 03:23 pm (UTC)
Heh. Seconded!
25th-Mar-2013 12:58 pm (UTC)
Oh I want a Bat Cave too!! I adore that set!

I wonder if part of the idea might be the characters saying goodbye to themselves

I think there's certainly some of that. I felt that with Sam's apology and Cas seemed to be in a much better place than we've seen him for ages. He seems to have a mission now, so maybe has said goodbye to his past.

to use Dean's opinions as a measure of what is right. Whoever he is now, he must be a stranger to the person he used to be.

Yes. Lovely idea.

She's been in limbo since Lucifer fell, and only here does she really break her ties with her old self and try to start over.

Indeed. I wonder if she welcomed death. After all the torment she has been through surely death would be her final peace. (I take it once demons are killed that's it. No more hell).

But there's also, I think, a wistful letting go of might-have-beens.

Yeah - in Sam most definitely. A life he knows he can never have (which I always thought he knew anyway) and for Dean...hmmm...not sure. Maybe accepting he can be part of these trials, even though he can't do them himself.

Meg knows she's going to die when she sends Sam to save her angel; Sam thinks he's probably going to die because of the trials. So they're getting oblivion instead.

Lovely. Even if those lyrics aren't about that, that's definitely going on. I thought the scene between Meg and Sam was great.


Thanks for the thinky...



23rd-Mar-2013 02:28 pm (UTC)
touches me right where my bathing suit goes

You really can't say things like that when I'm having my coffee, I just spayed a brownish pattern over my work.

I'm always in awe of all those nameless people who contribute the backbone to TV and movies, the amount of thought and dedication that goes into these things is truely astounding, with comperatively little payoff. It's mostly taken for granded. I love watching the 'Making of...' featurettes for movies and I'd love it they did something like this, but really in depth, for SPN again. The did one in season 2, and that was really great, but way to superficial and short. I'd be sitting through 90 min of that, no problem.

And on that note, I also could watch a hole curtain!cave episode, where nothing more exciting happened that doing the dishes and rummaging through the cave...That intro was just a heart-breaker.
25th-Mar-2013 01:03 pm (UTC)
I think I did the same thing when Crowley said that line. I loved Robbie's humor... :)

And I love all the behind the scenes docos also. The machinations of putting together a film or TV ha always fascinated me.

I would LOVE a whole ep where they spend the whole time in the BAt Cave - exploring all the rooms and books and boxes. And cooking and cleaning and generally being domestic. Lucky when have fanfic to provide all this..;)
23rd-Mar-2013 02:38 pm (UTC)
I wondered what those circles on the map table were. Does anyone know? I wanted them to be other bunkers, like a network of batcaves. Probably not because they seem to be moveable, but how cool would that be? I mean, there's got to be a reason for the map table other than just looking cool, right?

Goodbye, Stranger probably has layered meanings for all the characters. Meg death certainly (*sniffs a little*) and Castiel's shucking off his "programming" or whatever. Also Sam's stopped hiding the metamorphosis from Dean.

The crosses in Namoi's office are pretty cool. Who's the sacrificial son now? Cas? Dean? Is that even a point anymore? And how do Crowley and Naomi know each other? I'm still not entirely convinced that something about the Amelia thing isn't a nefarious Naomi plot. OK, maybe sort of convinced, but I'm kind of clinging to that idea in the back of my mind.

Guh.... there was something I wanted to ask you about Sam's trials and now I can't remember.
*pours another cup of coffee*

I'm still sitting here recounting the ways in which Meg was awesome this episode. When she asked if Cas missed the apocalypse - that was classy. :)

LOL @ your location tag. A+

Edited at 2013-03-23 02:39 pm (UTC)
25th-Mar-2013 01:23 pm (UTC)
I wondered what those circles on the map table were

Other bunkers would be a nice idea. :) It will be interesting to see if they have ideas for them or if they're just left over...things...from when it was being used in the war.

Also Sam's stopped hiding the metamorphosis from Dean.

Ack! Metamorphosis. I mused to myself that Sam might change into something "other"...ooh, I wonder if they are planning something like that. I figured it's just something that threatens his life, but maybe there's a change on the way.

I'm still not entirely convinced that something about the Amelia thing isn't a nefarious Naomi plot.

I would still love that to be something. I would love Amelia to be there for more than just a distraction for Sam. Though I'm not convinced. I think it was all about us knowing that Sam knew he couldn't have "normal" (which we already knew).


23rd-Mar-2013 03:24 pm (UTC)
Just waking up. Not yet enough coffee. Read these (excellent) thoughts as well as the comments (also all excellent). Random thoughts just occurred to me about the crosses in Naomi's office. First, wow, great detail. And they do so stand out; it's kinda amazing that no one noticed until Jerry pointed it out. I also really love all the thought and work and attention to detail that goes into our show (and movies and TV in general, as someone said below.) Here's a random thought about those crosses however - I am NOT an expert on Christianity (only loosely raised a Lutheran and long since left it), but isn't the cross a Christian symbol? And since Show's Heaven and angels have not (that I recall) even referenced Christ, I found this interesting/confusing. ...

I guess coffee is starting to kick in because I just could not leave it along at this and did go wiki "cross" and "Christian cross" and went a little *headdesk* because I did know some of this, just needed wiki to remind me. Of course there is the Christian cross (which, btw, Naomi's crosses do look more like) and then there is the more ancient cross symbol (which one might argue could also be what is on Naomi's walls; but honestly I think the chosen lighting really does highlight a more Christian version of the cross). Anyway, I'm rambling of course with no final conclusion. Just that I found this bit below from wiki regarding the ancient cross interesting.

"The cross is one of the most ancient human symbols, and has been used by many religions, most notably Christianity. It is frequently a representation of the division of the world into four elements (Chevalier, 1997) or cardinal points, or alternately as the union of the concepts of divinity, the vertical line, and the world, the horizontal line (Koch, 1955)."
23rd-Mar-2013 03:35 pm (UTC)
Oh and another random thought. When I saw the dead Dean's scene, all I could think of was Jensen getting all bloodied up and having to pose in multiple dead-Dean shots so they could cgi him all over the floor. Of course they reused the same shots - but I wonder how many unique dead-Dean poses there were? Perhaps only a half dozen or so. But very good job with that because it's not very obvious, even with a still frame and examination. You can see some of them, but nothing very obvious. Nice job.
23rd-Mar-2013 08:21 pm (UTC)
Someone on the effects crew tweeted that there were only 2 real bodies in the Dean scene, the rest were CGI. And I think he said they used stuntmen, not Jensen, for the two real poses.
23rd-Mar-2013 08:51 pm (UTC)
Oh really? How interesting. *Very* good job then. :)

23rd-Mar-2013 04:29 pm (UTC)

And since Show's Heaven and angels have not (that I recall) even referenced Christ, I found this interesting/confusing. ...

"Do you remember the twentieth century? Think the twenty-first is going any better?" - Raphael to Castiel, 5x03

That's one angel talking directly to another (totally ignoring the human in their midst). They've never name-checked the Nazarene, no, but they talk about time to one another using the scale that's based upon his birthdate. FWIW.
23rd-Mar-2013 04:54 pm (UTC)
Oh! Interesting.... Likely just the writer's using (without thought) the current human time scale. Or perhaps not? Still interesting.
25th-Mar-2013 01:33 pm (UTC)
Interesting point about the crosses. I sometimes wonder how the demons and angels work in relation to Christianity. I know they are based around a certain amount of it but,as you say, it's never directly referenced (I don't think).

As for the angel time line - I can't get my head around that at all. I think they were "timeless" - or maybe they occupy Sam and Dean's time because they are important to future events. Or something.

Far too hard for my wee brain.
24th-Mar-2013 02:25 am (UTC)
Omg, that smile that Dean gave Sam at the end - it was so flirty! I can't see it any other way, considering what they were talking about. I laughed out loud, rather gleefully :)
25th-Mar-2013 01:35 pm (UTC)
That smile was priceless! And yes! Flirty! Those boys....<333
24th-Mar-2013 05:56 am (UTC)
I noticed that the heaven window now is tinted red and blue. I have not seen anybody commenting on that. I remember reading a meta about color scheme, bottom line is that red is danger, blue is good (?). I wonder if someone had done an analysis that I've missed?
25th-Mar-2013 01:38 pm (UTC)
Hmmm..interesting. I haven't seen anything written either (sadly zimshan seems to be awol so we don't get much colour analysis any more. Though galwithglasses might pick something up. She's great at noticing that stuff).

I think the mix of blue and red is significant though. The blue brings a coldness and it matches Naomi's personality. The red could certainly signal danger.

(Deleted comment)
25th-Mar-2013 01:39 pm (UTC)
I wouldn't have picked up on the crosses! (wish I had...)

I adore Dean's smile - that whole scene in fact. :)
24th-Mar-2013 09:11 am (UTC)
After the point out to the crosses in Naomi's office windows I'm now seeing crosses in that nature shot. As if they are a track left by Castiels travel. (Starting in the slightly left(ish) middel bottom of the image.)
25th-Mar-2013 01:40 pm (UTC)
Oh YES YES! I see them now too. I wonder if that's why we had that little moment at the end?! Good pick up! :D

24th-Mar-2013 12:18 pm (UTC)
As far as referencing Jesus, there have been several episodes where dean has said "Jesus Christ" and Cas has said, "I don't think he will be of any help" so Cas has made it clear he is around somewhere. I doubt we will ever see him in the show though it would be interesting. The sets themselves are just incredible this season as is the CGI they are using. Great Jobs Guyz!!!
25th-Mar-2013 01:41 pm (UTC)
They have been doing a great job in the SFX department!

And I had forgotten JC being mentioned in the show like that. So many eps to remember now...

Thanks
x
24th-Mar-2013 07:33 pm (UTC)
The set and production design this season is blowing me away. I am especially fond of the MoL set. <3<3

The song seemed to me to point to a lot of the characters -- I didn't expect the song itself to wind up in the episode, and the way it played over Sam and Dean in the Impala, then went to Naomi, and then finally Cas on a bus, was poignant. And the final shot is of train tracks and a road, which seems very symbolic.
25th-Mar-2013 01:45 pm (UTC)
Agreed! The sets are amazing! I am so in love the the MoL set.

And the final shot is of train tracks and a road, which seems very symbolic.

Yeah, I think so too.

Re the title - it makes me think it was used purely for the song. I wondered if the episode would have that title without the song - in that - is it relevant to what actually happened in the ep? I think it does - but the song helps it a lot.

And hey you! *glomps*
26th-Mar-2013 10:32 pm (UTC)
Hey! ♥

I had some theories, before the ep aired, why that song and actually what I thought it what sort of happened but it's a bit reaching. My speculation pertained to Dean and Castiel but I think the song wasn't just them, it was for everyone. The song is about freedom, but freedom without emotional ties, but the ep was a lot about emotional ties, and the longing for them. (Sam's longing is the opposite of the song, he wants the constancy). And it's goodbye to the stranger because Castiel turned back into himself, chose family and free will--but winds up alone on the road, like the narrator in the song.

Even if that wasn't the intent, the mood of the song seemed to really fit.
25th-Mar-2013 10:22 pm (UTC)
Bleh, I'm so late to the game that it's not even funny.

I'm one of those who hadn't noticed the crosses. I did notice the cross shapes that happened when Naomi and Cas were leaning against that wall, but the lights were too subtle. :) Now I can't unsee it, though. Gotta love the people working on Show and putting in this amount of detail and pointing them out to us. \o/
26th-Mar-2013 11:01 pm (UTC)
Hi!

I know - once you see them they are so clear. I think if we had spotted them I'd say we were seeing something that they hadn't intended, but to know that thought was actually was put into them means we're not seeing things...;) They do think about this stuff.

I hope we get some more gems from Jerry.

xx
26th-Mar-2013 10:11 pm (UTC)
I love to read your analysis and observation ♥
26th-Mar-2013 11:01 pm (UTC)
I'm glad! Thanks for letting me know. <3
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