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just enough to make us dangerous
8.22 episode reaction/review 
9th-May-2013 10:00 pm
Discussion / no weapons discharge


Hmmmm...

*ponders*

I have mixed feelings about that one - ranging from "OMG WOW" to "seriously, we're back here again?". There's also some.."that was cool" and "eeewwwwww" and "wake me up when this bit is over". So yeah, very mixed. Some good and some not so good.

Bear with me if you choose to read on - I'm trying to work it out.

It felt like this episode was putting all the pieces on the chessboard in order to play the actual game next week. Maybe that's what the penultimate episode is suppose to do. I get it, the pieces need to be moved around and positioned correctly but it just all felt a little...um....contrived. Or something. Dammit. I don't know - I can't put my finger on why it left me feeling less than squeeful.

There were some things I loved:

The thing that struck me the most was the way they acknowledged and used the very thing - the very reason why Sam and Dean hunt - saving people. This was extremely powerful and totally ramped up the intensity at the end. I loved it.

I think using Sarah Blake was a stroke of genius (and proves that TPTB listen and know what and who is important to us). Sarah has been held dear to many fans - she was seen as a great match for Sam. From what I understand, the fans loved her and she was often written into stories that involved Sam's "happy ever after" (well, the ones that don't have Dean as his happy ever after...;D), so it was no accident that she was the one chosen to die in this episode. She meant something to us, to Sam AND to Dean. I honestly didn't think they would kill her - especially after mentioning she had a child, but they did and they actually needed to in order to bring the seriousness of this home. And it did. The ending was intense and rather harrowing. Everything we've come to expect in a Supernatural episode.

Sarah's comments about how Sam has "grown up" rather killed me. I kept thinking she was going to say..."you look awful Sam. What happened to you". But she didn't. She knows what he deals with and knows that it would have taken its toll. Instead she remained positive, telling him he's more focused and more confident, that he knows what he wants. It made my heart break.

I mean - this is how she saw Sam 7 years ago:

1.19-Sammy-smile

And this is what she is looking at now:

8.22-SAm-face

The difference is striking and having an outsider POV of Sam, really highlights just how much he's changed - and not for the better. *sniff*

And then there's Dean's reaction shot:

8.22-Dean-turns

I love how this sums up the tragedy of their lives. Sam's telling Sarah she's happy for her and Dean knows it's the life that Sam might have had. Sam's holding it in and Dean knows it.

Other stuff I really liked:

Seeing more of the bunker. I really like the new reveals - room 7b. Ha! Dungeon! *yikes* I figure that's going to come in handy in the finale? - they must have introduced it for a reason (another chess piece).

Even something like Dean wanting to ping pong table. :)

The old film footage. It was an interesting device for getting across the information and I like the spooky element it added to everything. Just something about black and white footage. The demons (particularly the first one) were scary.

Dean drinking out of Sam's beer bottle. These boys share spit no problem. :)

Sam asking after Cas. Sam continues to have a connection with Cas and I like the further development of this. It's curious to me that Sam and Cas constantly share similar experiences (turning "evil", going crazy, needing redemption, suffering in some way) and yet they haven't ever really explored that. I don't mind that they are showing us, rather than telling us though. Sam has always been the one to really understands Cas (and yet it's Dean that Cas constantly seeks approval from).

Sam and Dean still being on the same page and working together. yay! Dean is still keeping his eye on Sam. I personally believe that Dean is at his best when he feels he can help or look after Sam. I know some don't like Dean as Sam's carer, but it (fortunately) is something I like very much. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see Sam caring for Dean. In fact - I would love to see that at some stage.

Crowley. Yes, I actually didn't mind Crowley so much in this one because he was being smart rather than brutal. He knows Sam and Dean so well that he knows where to hit them the hardest. This Crowley is much more interesting. Maybe Crowley has been on a journey of realization through this season. Smart is better than brutal (though I really don't think this has been deliberate).

Stuff I struggled with:

Umm...pretty much everything else. *sigh* I really, really don't wish that to be the case, but I come away from that episode feeling somewhat disappointed. Namely in the following things:

Cas is back to where he was in S6. After the episode where he ran off with the tablet I felt we had real direction for Cas - he has a purpose and a strength. Now he's back to being led into a direction he's not entirely happy with and we are back to where we've been before. They even made him hapless and doting and...yeah. Just wasn't working for me I'm afraid. I want Cas to man up! Stop trying to seek Dean's approval, instead do something that will make him happy with you. They obviously still consider Cas a child (breaking eggs and bumping into shelves).

I just CAN NOT work out what they are trying to do with the Dean and Cas relationship. I get that Dean would be pissed with him, but all it does is take us back to every other time Dean is pissed with him - which seems like always. Maybe we're meant to be on this journey to see how they "make up" - but to be honest I really don't care. I'd rather see all three of them getting on and working together. I get that there's supposed to be emotional drama in that, but it's only the same as when Sam and Dean fight -unless it's for a perfectly good reason I don't buy it.

Cas is to do the heaven trials. That's incredibly disappointing to me. Someone suggested that Dean might be the one to do those and I rather loved the idea of that. Dean has been aligned with Heaven as Sam is with Hell. I suppose it could be argued that that's too obvious but I am certainly more interested in seeing Dean go through trials than I am Cas.

Metatron and Cas stuff. Hmm...cup of tea time. Those scenes should have been engaging - COULD have been engaging if it had been filmed differently. Maybe give it more intensity. Or it's probably just me. Unless S&D are somehow involved in the story I tend to switch off a bit.

It was nice to see Abaddon again - I love the actress who is playing her. But really? They had to make the boys stupid enough to leave her hands close by (hee, anyone not having seen that ep will have no idea what that means *g*), not trap her more securely and then leave her unattended etc. COME ON! They had a dungeon!! (I get why they didn't take her to the MoL bunker though. That actually makes sense.

Where's Kevin? Safe with his mom maybe.

Where it's heading (No spoilers here - I have no idea!)

I didn't watch the preview. I will TRY and stay unspoiled, though Tumblr is horrible for that.

I really, really want something to happen that we can't even fathom. I want them to really put it out there - turn everything on it's head. I don't think they will, but I can hope.

They've put out all the pieces - Abaddon (unless she's on the loose to return next season), Crowley (surely he's gotta die), Cas and Metaron (er...no idea. Though maybe Cas will stop and realise he's only doing what's he's done before - following an angel. Maybe it's time for him to stop and think instead of rushing into his next course of action). There's the last trial (why is curing a demon less than exciting to me? Inject a demon with purified blood (probably Sam's) and say a few words and that's it? Is there even a demon we care enough about to be saved? (Meg!)). And where does Dean fit into all this? At the moment he seems to be on the sidelines - in terms of what's at sake for him. Sure, Sam's at stake but he's been at stake for a few episodes now. Ramping up the angst in that area is going to be tricky). I honestly thought that the trials would somehow involve Dean, but so far, it's not looking like it.

But I shall remain hopeful! It feels like they are heading toward something significant. I think I am particularly nervous because the finale is likely to impact my final thoughts on the overall season. I hope to see them pull it all together and I can look back and see that it was all there for a reason. And rejoice!

(ETA: I am MORE than happy to hear your squee about this one. I didn't NOT like it, it just didn't leave me bouncing around. My heart did break a wee bit, so that's something. ;D)
Comments 
9th-May-2013 02:13 pm (UTC)
Cas is to do the heaven trials.

I haven't watched the episode yet, so this is probably a dumb question, but... doesn't this directly contradict what we know about the tablets and the trials? Wasn't the whole, entire idea of the trials that God basically put this loophole into the Heaven/Earth/Hell setup, so that if mankind decided they wanted to rule their own demesne, they had a way to do that? Isn't that why a prophet has to translate them and all?

And that's what this has all been about, the choices your kind make. Or, you know, not.

Ugh, I should probably rewatch (or, you know, watch) some more of S8 to answer my own question, but.
9th-May-2013 02:19 pm (UTC)
doesn't this directly contradict what we know about the tablets and the trials?

Well yes. I'm confused. I figure I missed something important because I did, er, tune out a bit during all their chat and I haven't been up to going back and figuring it all out. There was something mentioned about that I think...

eep...looks like I'll have to do a re-watch and actually listen to those bits....;D
9th-May-2013 02:30 pm (UTC)
I think the show probably hasn't said this in so many words, though Metatron's dialogue last week seemed to support the idea. It's just what made sense to me based on all of the show's prior mythology (S5 in particular). Since the unveiling of the Word of God (the tablets) creates a Prophet to translate them, it seems to be implied that they are written specifically for mankind. Add to that the ongoing theme of free will, Metatron's dialogue last week, and things Chuck said in the past, it certainly seems strange to me that an angel would do the trials. Sounds as though this was the writer's contrivance to set up whatever they have in mind for Castiel in S9.

I'm more irritated than I would have guessed about the fact that it isn't Dean who has to do them. And also, that this entire storyline has never touched on the philosophical or practical consequences of shutting Earth off from Heaven and Hell.
10th-May-2013 01:31 am (UTC)
Oh yes yes. It's definitely been the feeling that it's not something a demon or angel should be able to do. As with the "strolling into Hell" episode. They taken something that created a lot of angst and importance in the past and then stripped that all away. If all it took was Metatron to tell Cas what he had written (and Cas easily doing it) then it devalues everything Kevin has been through - and the setting up of the whole tablet thing.

I would say this has definitely been done to set Cas's character up for next season.

And also, that this entire storyline has never touched on the philosophical or practical consequences of shutting Earth off from Heaven and Hell.

Oh my god yes. You know, this is where Sam and Dean come across as "runts" - in that, they see a means to an end "shut the gates and the earth is rid of angels and demons" - with no consideration of the wider consequences of that. Now - it could be that that will be on the table for next season. I can't see how they can reconcile shutting these so called gates and that being the end of it all (the way Sam and Dean are talking about it being the end). We know it can't be so what are they going to do about that? And if it means going to all this trouble to shut them only to find that there's another super baddy who can open them down the track - then *sigh*, this storyline will be for nothing. And they have done that a few times now, so I don't put it past them.

And THIS is why I am holding my breath for next week. I WANT some of that addressed. I want to see (or know) what it actually means to shut the gates of hell. Is it something that will cause more problems than already exist? Are all the demons on earth sucked back into hell?Has what Sam been going through going to amount to anything? etc. etc.

Damn, stupid show. I don't want to be this damn invested. It HURTS! ;)
<3
9th-May-2013 02:18 pm (UTC)
I always come looking to your journal to help me make sense of the episode and today was no different. I LOVE how you showed us Sam from waaaay back when compared to todays Sam, so very different it actually hurt looking at them both ...@@

I have to agree with everything you said about why this ep felt off somehow even though it was still really good. We needed to get the set up for next week. My daughter and I squeaked throughout the whole Cas is trying to make up w. his boyfriend scenes in the grocery store. very cute--but its gonna take way more than pie to get Deans forgiveness.

Also, DITTO on the whole Sam friendship with Cas. Ive always felt that show keeps telling us Sam cares about Cas, but they have never ever shown us WHY?? other than saving Dean from hell, why would Sam care so much about a dick angel that has really rather screwed them over many times....even if he does come in a adorable Misha vessel??? lol. Show needs to show us some Sam and Cas bonding scenes to support that level of concern from Sam cause quite honestly, Cas has always been kinda of a dick to him....maybe sammy is a masochist?????

The whole Abaddon scenes? I hate it when they show boys as stupid and that was what they did. Even I know better than to have left her unattended...wow FAIL. but she was another plot point I suppose, so yes...

I still dont get why Cas and Booger/Metatron needed to kill that half angel/half human woman? that seemed unnecessary to me or the whole plot....
is it next wednesday yet cause that ep looks AWESOME!!!
9th-May-2013 02:35 pm (UTC)
Hi,

I think I understand why Sam understands Cas. They are quite similar in that they have been misguided. Sam knows what it's like to do the "wrong" thing and seek forgiveness - just like Cas. I think Sam forgives much quicker than Dean (for good reasons and because it's part of their individual personalities), so even though Cas removed Sam's wall, he can also understand the motivations behind it.

The killing of the angel/human was kinda weird thought - but I'll leave my judgement on that until next week. It might be significant. It seems a shame to introduce such a thing and then kill her. It was also sad to see Cas kill - again.
9th-May-2013 02:26 pm (UTC)
I actually don't have a problem with Abbadon's hand, except for looking at it. it's super creepy that the nail polish was still perfect. I think it's not something people would think of, even seasoned hunters. </p>

I love love the monologue by Crowley, pure evil genius, hit them hard right where it hurts the most.

regarding Cas seeking approval from Dean, rather than Sam, I think it's because he already has Sam.

anyway, I think this is a great episode leading up to finale.

9th-May-2013 02:42 pm (UTC)
The hand was creepy!! And I can forgive them for not thinking about the hand I suppose, I just...argh...when they left I was shouting at the TV (I suppose the tension was working...;D)

I think it was a good ep leading into the finale. It set everything in place and I have high hopes for it being amazing. :))
(Deleted comment)
10th-May-2013 01:39 am (UTC)
Oooh, yes - I think that would be interesting. I thought they might be going down that direction too, but after actually watching them exorcise a demon and it looking so involved and painful I'm not sure they'll put Sam through that (though I'd love to see it!). But they could! It would certainly up the angst stakes if Dean is the one to "cure" Sam. Though....arghhh....I'm not sure about that either. Sam doesn't really need curing as a demon would. I suppose it would depend on how demonic the demon needs to be (not that I see Sam as a demon - sure, he has demon blood in him, but I'm not even sure what that really means).

arghhhh.....Looking forward to finding out!!
9th-May-2013 02:36 pm (UTC)
It's curious to me that Sam and Cas constantly share similar experiences (turning "evil", going crazy, needing redemption, suffering in some way) and yet they haven't ever really explored that.

. . . don't forget that they've both been on the wrong end of Dean's ass-kicking boot. Many times. ;) There should definitely be more solidarity between those two. I really don't get why there's not.

I just CAN NOT work out what they are trying to do with the Dean and Cas relationship.

Honestly? I don't think the writers know, either. It's the same old thing every time. Cas screws up, Dean gets mad, Dean forgives. You'd think, after the fourth or fifth rendition of this silly dance, someone would get a clue. Either Castiel would realize that he keeps going down the wrong path and shape up, or Dean would realize that maybe it's not in his best interest to keep forgiving the person who keeps betraying him. At this point, I'm kinda annoyed with them both.

Cas is to do the heaven trials. That's incredibly disappointing to me. Someone suggested that Dean might be the one to do those and I rather loved the idea of that. Dean has been aligned with Heaven as Sam is with Hell. I suppose it could be argued that that's too obvious but I am certainly more interested in seeing Dean go through trials than I am Cas.

This. OMG, THIS. I was really hoping that Dean would get to do that part also -- it makes perfect sense, especially when you recall the vessel issue. Major disappointment that Dean doesn't get to do it. (On the other hand, maybe Dean was meant to do it and someone intentionally threw a wrench spanner into the works? hugemind suggested that maybe Metatron is playing Castiel, getting him to kill the "only" Nephilim in order to stop that part of the trial from being completed by anyone else -- like, maybe Dean. I like that kind of sneaky thinking!)

Crowley was awesome, but I think if anyone takes him down, it will be Abbadon. She's badass AND has major issues with the fact that a "salesman" is now King of Hell. *hopes for a showdown*

. . . and yes. I LOVE Abbadon.
They had to make the boys stupid enough to leave her

It would not be good for anyone to get me started on THAT. Nope!
10th-May-2013 01:51 am (UTC)
don't forget that they've both been on the wrong end of Dean's ass-kicking boot

ha! Yes. They could both share what it's like to receive Dean's "I'm not happy" stare. I wonder if they'll ever have Sam convince Cas that Dean will come around and not to doing anything stupid (like listen to Metatron!).

You'd think, after the fourth or fifth rendition of this silly dance, someone would get a clue.

THAT'S where the frustration is coming from for me. Why keep going around and around?! I just couldn't believe that we had Cas going off and doing something stupid AGAIN!

Oooh, I like hugemind's thinking there. THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE! Metatron IS playing Cas. He's certainly not trustworthy and that could be the reason. I also got the feeling that Cas's trail was completed too easily and without much consequence (that we could see), so maybe it's exactly about that. ...ok. I'll suspend my judgement on that for a moment...;D

ha! A showdown between Crowley and Abaddon would be well cool! I did see a suggestion that Crowley might be the demon they "cure" and Abaddon becomes Queen of Hell and the next Big Bad. though how that works if they close the gates of hell I have no idea.

Oh man../o\ making the boys looks stupid. NOT GOOD!
9th-May-2013 02:48 pm (UTC)
Overall, I quite enjoyed the episode. I am chosing to let the little bits I didn't like go over my head as I am thoroughly enjoying season 8 compared with 6 or 7 and I am holding high hopes for the finale.

I am glad of where Carver has taken us this season but as the J's said at the recent convention, previous showrunners painted him into a corner. People are complaining how OOC Dean was towards Cas but isn't this our original Dean? Protect Sammy at all costs being his main priority. But he has always had abandonment issues and that is all Cas has seemed to be doing to him. So the fact that Dean is pissed at him seems to be perfectly understandable IMHO. :-)
10th-May-2013 01:57 am (UTC)
Hey!

Yeah, overall I enjoyed it. The niggles have niggled at me a bit more but after reading some of the awesome suggestions in the thread I am feeling more positive about some things.

I didn't consider Dean OOC at all with him being pissed at Cas. It makes perfect sense that he is - it's just that the reaction is now getting a bit stale. Now it just feels like Dean is being churlish. I get it, but he wasn't even this pissed after he broke Sam's wall. He went back to trusting Cas pretty quickly so we know this will just take it's course and we're in for a "make up" scene (aka, Cas needs help, Sam convinces Dean that they need to help, Dean helps Cas, all is forgiven).

Though, as you say, Dean has abandonment issues so maybe he IS more pissed at Cas for leaving them rather than anything else. I can buy that (hee...I just don't like it).

xx

9th-May-2013 02:59 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think this one was mixed. It did a fairly good job of laying the groundwork for the finale, and I was so relieved to see Crowley regain a modicum of intelligence, but the plot holes were ... not good.

She knows what he deals with and knows that it would have taken its toll. Instead she remained positive, telling him he's more focused and more confident, that he knows what he wants.

I took it as honesty. The Sam Sarah knew was broken by guilt. He feared he was a monster. He thought he would kill her just by knowing her. He was paralysed by his misery. Helping her defeat the ghost helped him too, of course, but he's been on a long journey since then. He's become a hero, and though he's still uncomfortable with his demon blood he thinks he's found the path out of that.

Sarah's Sam was physically well but emotionally broken; this Sam is physically sick, but emotionally strong. And in killing her, Crowley takes that away. He knocks Sam (at least for the moment) back to the shattered, scared kid he was in season one. It's why I liked Crowley in this one. He was genuinely scary.

I personally believe that Dean is at his best when he feels he can help or look after Sam. I know some don't like Dean as Sam's carer, but it (fortunately) is something I like very much.

They are utterly adorable. Ah, sidekicks. My very favourite thing. If nothing else, they're making me happy. :)

Metatron and Cas stuff. Hmm...cup of tea time. Those scenes should have been engaging - COULD have been engaging if it had been filmed differently. Maybe give it more intensity.

I just found that stuff frustrating. Why on earth would Castiel believe Metatron? He has 'suspicious character' written all over him. His disgust at the mere existence of that poor Nephilim girl should have been enough to raise red flags. Why wouldn't he run this stuff past Kevin to make sure it's legit?

I was so pleased last week when they wrote Castiel as smart and thoughtful. Now he just seems stupid and mean. I started wanting to slap him when he was bullying that poor cashier. You screwed up, Castiel. Don't take it out on the kid.

But really? They had to make the boys stupid enough to leave her hands close by (hee, anyone not having seen that ep will have no idea what that means *g*), not trap her more securely and then leave her unattended etc.

Yeah, that was inexcusable. No other word for it. Dabb needed to liberate her and clearly couldn't think of a good way to do it. It's one of the worst failures in writing: make the characters stupid to fix your mistakes.

There's the last trial (why is curing a demon less than exciting to me? Inject a demon with purified blood (probably Sam's) and say a few words and that's it? Is there even a demon we care enough about to be saved? (Meg!))

I see why they killed Meg, now. At this point, she'd probably volunteer. I mean, being a demon just puts her on Crowley's most wanted list, and her cause in hell is dead. But they want this to be a battle, so they need to use a demon who'd resist.

I'm also afraid that Meg is a bit too complex for what they want to do. Her story was of demons who had a cause, and even their own weird ethics. And she was always able to adjust her views in light of new circumstances. How would you be certain you'd cured her? She was on Sam and Dean's side anyway. The demon in the film was all 'I EAT CHILDREN! RWAR!!!' so it was pretty damn obvious. They need a demon who'll do that. :)
9th-May-2013 04:03 pm (UTC)
Ooooh, I forgot one of the best parts, the beginning!! that black and white film was super creepy and you know that seeing Abaddons meat suit was beyond creepy because we know"" what happens to her. I kept thinking about that part, so kudos show.
Maybe Im just slow, but the whole demon who eats children crap was ...IDK. did they cure the demon? why not exercise it back to hell? why care about curing it? how would they EVER know if it really really works? Demons lie!! remember show????
In theory, curing a demon sounds interesting, but the whole process left me wanting....if that makes any sense....?
9th-May-2013 04:17 pm (UTC)
Well, demons are people. And they've been tortured beyond all endurance. That seems like a pretty good reason to care about curing them to me. :)

I can see practical reasons, too. Exorcism is only a short-term solution. They keep popping back up. More permanent answers – kill or cure – would be strategically valuable.

That said, the Men of Letters were basically researchers. They probably did it to see if they could. I don't know that I approve of their (or the priest's) methods, though. It looks too much like torture, and who the hell knows what it does to the host.

As to the demon that was cured – I agree that there are problems with such a short film, with no follow up, as proof. That said, I think it was probably just storytelling shorthand and we are supposed to believe it worked. With an outside chance that it's all a trick. I don't think demons lie any more than humans do, though. :)

I admit I'm puzzled as to how it's all supposed to work. I'm not really sure why jabbing a demon with human blood would help.
10th-May-2013 07:23 am (UTC)
I these are excellent points. If demons can be cured then there's less of a chance that they can escape and possess people.

The pure blood is a new twist. I wonder if this is tied into Sam's purifying. Though it was mentioned that the priest just had to confess and he was purified, so it's probably not that.

I wonder if Sam has to actually complete the final trial to be fully purified.
10th-May-2013 07:18 am (UTC)
this Sam is physically sick, but emotionally strong.

Yeah. I can see that. Looking back at 1.19 Sam was very unsure of himself and emotionally damaged. I suppose I still see Sam as being unsure, but that's probably only because of the trials and not because of where he has arrived. If it had been the Sam that gave Dean the "I see light at the end of the tunnel" speech, then yeah. Sam is more confident than he was. But *meep* he looked so broken in that episode.

Why on earth would Castiel believe Metatron?

Why indeed. And if it's because he's upset about Dean then..*sigh*, seriously time to grow up and make some sensible decisions. I thought Cas had turned that corner last week. He seemed to know the difference between good and bad. Surely the fact that Cas had to kill someone (again), would have been enough to say "no" to. In fact, if he had said no, then we could have seen further progress. But alas. His hand was forced (because she turned on them) so the deed is done.

And yeah, I can see that Meg wouldn't work here. Both Crowley and Sam have been suggested to me as the ones to be "cured". I really don't know.

9th-May-2013 03:18 pm (UTC)
i thought it was a really good episode - which is not to say that i don't agree with some of the issues you wrote down here. but - while i'm one of the few that thinks season eight is a million steps up from season seven - it's been a while since i've been so invested in the story. when the ep ended, i thought, 'that's it, they're never getting out of this one.'

(a tip: don't watch the promo for next week's ep. i saw it, and it answered all of my questions - or pretended to do so. and that took away a lot of the suspense.)

the only problem i have with this ep is cas's storyline. i've never been his biggest fan, so pretty much anything that's to do with only cas and not the boys has never been really interesting to me. but i don't really mind him if he's part of the overall story. it feels to me like they didn't really know what to do with him, but really didn't want to let misha go, so they just gave him the angel trials.

but it really doesn't make sense, if you think about it. metatron talks about closing heaven as if it's not permanent - like they can just open up the doors whenever they want? but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of going through these trials and everything? i mean, if crowley could reopen the gates of hell whenever, then surely sam closing them wouldn't be that much of a threat. unless metatron means for him and cas to stay outside when the gates close, but then, if angels (or demons) can choose to stay outside, or perhaps remain outside if they already are outside, closing the doors isn't of much use, since all the angels (or demons) trudging the earth will still be on earth once the gates close. i just can't wrap my mind around it. i'm probably missing something very important here...

was i the only one who thought something was a bit off with metatron? i just find it weird he's suddenly all about the action and responsibility, when last episode, he did all he could to avoid it.

also, the parallels between sam and cas are so huge. i'm very sad show hasn't done anything with that yet. i don't understand how their relationship hasn't progressed at all since the start of season five. they'd make great buddies, i think.

and you were completely right about crowley - he was starting to bore me the last couple of episodes and i didn't quite know why, because i think he's a pretty cool character. but it's absolutely true that this is the first time in long that he actually made a really smart and really mean move that really shook up the game. it was awesome.

i'm sorry this is so long - i haven't had a chance to talk supernatural over in a very long time.
10th-May-2013 07:34 am (UTC)
Hi there!

I really hope I don't get spoiled for the next episode. I was spoiled for Sarah's return and I really wish I hadn't been. No more Tumblr for me until I've seen the next ep.

it feels to me like they didn't really know what to do with him, but really didn't want to let misha go, so they just gave him the angel trials.

Yep. He's a loose wheel that they keep trying to tighten and make fit, but it just seems to keep getting wobbly. Him doing the heaven trials make little sense - I figure there's to be some major drama surrounding this later down the track.

was i the only one who thought something was a bit off with metatron?

I think metatron is the new "dick" angel. We've had a good run of them (aren't there ANY nice angels around?). I think he's deliberately leading Cas astray. Not sure why yet, but I suspect that will be revealed at some point either next week or next season.

i don't understand how their relationship hasn't progressed at all since the start of season five. they'd make great buddies, i think.

Oh so much! It's as though Cas can only interact with Dean for some reason. I know that they apparently share this "profound bond" - but the more I see it the more I see Cas and Sam sharing a bond - a bond of suffering and survival.

Never apologise for long chats! I love it. :)) Thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts.


9th-May-2013 03:24 pm (UTC)
The thing that struck me was the last time that someone was called an abomination it was Sam, by Castiel and earlier by Uriel. So calling the girl an abomination was disturbing.

I do agree that Dean should have taken the heaven trials, but I suspect Metatron will say they involve some things so unsavory that Dean would not consider it, so Cas got the call. I am disappointed that Dean will not have a part in either trial, except to possibly tell Sam how badly he screwed up by closing the Gates of Hell when things go all wrong, because I don't think closing the Gates of Hell or Heaven is going to be a good thing.
10th-May-2013 07:42 am (UTC)
So calling the girl an abomination was disturbing.

It was very disturbing. And it is the biggest red flag of them all that metatron is dodgy.

except to possibly tell Sam how badly he screwed up by closing the Gates of Hell when things go all wrong, because I don't think closing the Gates of Hell or Heaven is going to be a good thing.

Oh noes! I hope they don't chose this route. Dean is very much behind these trials also. Sam isn't doing these behind Dean's back so if they don't work they won't be Sam's fault. If Dean thinks Sam screws up I think there will an uproar.

It's interesting that there's been little consideration about what they are doing is actually right. We have no idea what the ramifications of closing these "gates" will be. It could make things even worse. It might be something they will explore next season maybe. But I think the blame game will be very tedious, if they chose to go down that route again.


10th-May-2013 07:45 am (UTC)
Crowley's monologue was great! Mark must have loved delivering that. :)

And yes, in comparison this was a better penultimate episode that the last two. And lets hope that the finale will continue in the same way and be better than the last two finales. :))
9th-May-2013 04:48 pm (UTC)
I'm thinking I'll wait until next week to watch this one. The next one is Carver, isn't it? Why can't Robbie Thompson write ALL the episodes?????

Sigh.

10th-May-2013 07:26 am (UTC)
Yeah. Might be a good idea. I mean, there was some pretty intense stuff in there but I am hoping all the stuff with Cas makes more sense after next week. And I am DESPERATE to know what plans they have for Sam and the final trial. So yeah...I'd wait if you can.

ROBBIE!! And yep Carver is the next one. It SHOULD be awesome, but he also scares me considering what a mish mash of stuff we've had this season.
9th-May-2013 05:49 pm (UTC)
The biggest issue I am having is their up and down characterization of Castiel, and as a result Dean.

Metatron said it best Castiel is a WARRIOR. Not a baby. But then again, he goes to a grocery store, makes a mess and almost pummels a guy for not having a pie.

So which is it, a warrior of god or a baby with anger management issues? Why was Castiel groveling and buying Deans favorite things? That's just pathetic. And given Deans lack of anger or any sort of reaction at what Cas did in S6, getting angry at this and stamping his feet looks nothing like a temper tantrum to me.
10th-May-2013 07:50 am (UTC)
100% agree. Dean seems petulant and as much as Dean might have a good reason to be pissed at Cas - everything he did was in context. It actually made sense that Cas removed himself from everyone to try and keep the tablet safe. Dean should be aware of that. Cas has also been through a trying time (lots of mind wipes and mind control etc) so Dean should also take that in consideration. I know that doesn't make for good drama, but I'm not sure this does either.

Let's hope the next one helps make sense of it all.

(and honestly, if the final scene is Cas driven or Dean and Cas driven I will very likely chuck a hissy fit. If Cas has to part of it I just hope all three are involved).
9th-May-2013 05:54 pm (UTC)
I actually enjoyed this episode more than the last two. We seem to differ in opinions for the last couple of weeks. ;D

Like you I loved all the brotherly moments and the storyline with Sarah. I loved that they brought her back and I wish they could have saved her, but I do understand why they couldn't. Even though it breaks my heart to think that her baby has to grow up without her.

She's so right about Sam. He grew up and seeing the two screencaps and the ones you put up at tumblr, just makes my heart bleed for him. Let's just hope that after the last trial is over he'll be better. :)

I laughed when they revealed the dungeon. I love to see how the batcave is kinda unfolding. I wonder what is in room 7c. ;)

I had my own problems with the rest of the episode, but for now the love I hold for the brothers in this just makes it fade to the background. I rolled my eyes at the Abadon scenes. Like really?! Our boys are not that stupid. That was so bad. I choose to not think about that scene any longer.

Cas and Metatron? I can't say I care. I don't. It makes me incredibly wary of what this will bring and how maybe it'll play out in season 9. So yeah, not thinking about it. :D

Oh and the anger you address that Dean is holding towards Cas right now. I have to say that for the first time in like four seasons or something I totally and completely happy with that. Every other time I wanted Dean to be angry with Cas for betraying them, he caved way to soon in my opinion. When Cas broke Sam's wall? What did Dean do, instead of kick his ass? He went and saved him and then picked up that stupid coat and craddled it to his chest. Instead of taking care of Sam first. Jeez. (Sorry, I have some hard feelings regarding thosee scenes ;D). So yeah, I'm happy he isn't cutting Cas some slack. It took him years to completely forgive Sam, why should it be any different for Cas - who by the way betrayed them like three times now? (Sorry, still having bitter feelings)

I'm gonna sit back and see what the finale will bring. And then find a way to survive summer hiatus. (Even though Spartacus fandom is keeping me quite occupied right now :). You hold my full gratitude for your Spartacus post and making me finally watch it!)
10th-May-2013 08:03 am (UTC)
Hey there!

Hee...we do differ on the last few episodes. I'm such a h/c junkie so I think that drives a lot of my likes and dislikes. I also love any episode that's purely brother driven (like the last few), so I tend to gravitate towards them a bit more.

Though it looks like you too liked a lot of what I liked in this one. :)

I have to say that for the first time in like four seasons or something I totally and completely happy with that.

And I agree with everything you say here. I actually have no issue that Dean is pissed with Cas. In fact I like it. What I DO have trouble with is that we are here again and you know that next week (or soon) it will blow over and we'll have Dean forgiving Cas and we're back to where were started.

And I too hold bitterness toward the fact that Cas broke Sam's wall and Dean said "you did your best man" later on. In fact I still carry bitterness around that whole story lines (Cas being married, Cas healing Sam after he said he couldn't, Cas going crazy etc. etc.)

The other issue I have is that Dean being pissed with Cas has driven Cas out and he's about to make stupid decisions again. So it indirectly becomes Dean's fault. Which, of course, Dean will feel guilty for later on. So yeah, get that he should be pissed off, annoyed that it's been done before and where this could lead. If they make this time different in some way then it might be worthwhile.

I too will sit back and patiently wait for the finale. I feel like I can't complain too much about anything until I can see what they are actually up to. I just hope that are up to something interesting..:)

And YAY Spartacus. Isn't it awesomesauce!?! I am SO glad my post persuaded you. That was the whole point of it. I wanted to spread the love. :DD
13th-May-2013 10:17 am (UTC)
Sorry for only replying now, I've been off to JIB last weekend. :)

it will blow over and we'll have Dean forgiving Cas and we're back to where were started.
I have a feeling that won't happen. Or more exactly I hope that won't happen. I think Cas should do some groveling for a some time. ;D

Yeah, Dean and his guilt issues. I hope he'll worry more about Sam and lets Cas do his thing for once, wether it ends bad or good.

Only three days now and we'll know. :)
9th-May-2013 06:11 pm (UTC)
I sort of can't move past the fact that the show brought back an awesome female character (and one of the few surviving ones) just to fridge her to give the brothers more angst. I mean, they definitely don't have enough of that. /sarcasm I agree that the scene was only effective (and chilling) because Sarah means something to the fans, but that's actually the problem. I'm kind of over that plot device.
9th-May-2013 06:55 pm (UTC)
Fridge, Amen. That was all I could think, especially learning she had a kid. Plus, she kissed Sam. Doom right there. I get why they did it, I just wish they'd expand their motivational toolbox. It's old and dead tired now and I'm bored. I can't believe I actually said that, especially this close to a finale.
10th-May-2013 08:14 am (UTC)
*jumps in* *HUGS* let's have our fingers crossed hun that we WON'T be bored next week!!
10th-May-2013 08:12 am (UTC)
Ah yes. There's no doubt it's problematic and from reading around the place it's definitely causing grief and annoyance.

Aside from them killing an awesome female character (and it IS a shame because they could have played that card in a much more positive way later on), I do like the idea of going back and killing the ones they saved as a way of getting to them. It's horrible, but effective. Everything they are and what keeps them going is the chance to save people (don't get me started on demon vessels though) so to eliminate that aspect of their lives, renders them powerless. Well, until next week when they will no doubt find a solution.

(reminds me of Meg killing Caleb and Pastor Jim to get at John in season 1)
9th-May-2013 09:33 pm (UTC)
As a Dean/Cas shipper, I actually agree with *everything* you said in the "Didn't Like" section.

Now he's back to being led into a direction he's not entirely happy with and we are back to where we've been before. They even made him hapless and doting and...yeah.

Exactly, especially the bit you brought up about the acting like a child. That is getting old, and the comic relief thing grates. He's supposed to be a warrior of Heaven and for some reason he's the only angel who is completely awkward amongst humanity.

Maybe we're meant to be on this journey to see how they "make up"... I get that there's supposed to be emotional drama in that, but it's only the same as when Sam and Dean fight

This. They keep inventing drama, the same as when Sam and Dean fight, and then in the next episode it's either glossed over or forgotten about. We'll never see how they "make up" because NO ONE TALKS TO EACH OTHER ON THIS SHOW. Gah.

And yes to wishing Dean would attempt the angel trials, and yes to the Cas & Metatron scenes being boring, because they expect us to believe that the union between human and angel only happened once, resulting in *one* nephilim -- who as only half-angel can throw around the angel who took on Alastair AND Lucifer? DUMB
10th-May-2013 10:24 am (UTC)
Hey!

I am really glad to get your take on the Dean and Cas stuff. I am curious what the shippers make of this latest development. It feels like a step backwards and as much as I don't ship Dean/Cas I do want to see their relationship make sense and move forward in a positive direction.

I love competent Cas and as "sweet" as the "must make it up to Dean by buying all the things he likes" was, it was such a huge step back to making Cas the comic relief and childlike.

There were signs last week that he had re-found his footing. It's a shame that hasn't continued.

I also find it hard to believe that there is only one nephilim in the world. Or that there was and that hasn't been allowed to be explored because she's now dead. And yeah...a half angel and she was able to nearly kill Metatron and was able to throw Cas around (unless she wasn't what Metatron said she was maybe...)

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. :)

10th-May-2013 12:52 am (UTC)
I know no spoilers for the finale other than the ep title, and I didn't watch the preview. So my guess is that the demon they're going to end up curing is the only one left that the boys know: Crowley. And then Abbadon will be Queen of Hell next year and scheming to get out.

I also worry about what we learned from the cool but creepy film reels: it took a lot of blood to get that demon cured. Sam's already weak, and he can't take on any transfusions or it won't be purified. And I'm guessing it would take an even bigger amount to cure Crowley, if in fact it is him.

Also, I thought that Show had run out of ways to make character death meaningful by now, but with Sarah and all of the other people they saved, I've been proven wrong. :(

Edited at 2013-05-10 12:53 am (UTC)
10th-May-2013 11:31 am (UTC)
So my guess is that the demon they're going to end up curing is the only one left that the boys know: Crowley. And then Abbadon will be Queen of Hell next year and scheming to get out.

This makes so much sense. It would be quite amazing to see them try and cure Crowley. He would be a very very hard nut to crack (and he'd be in the dungeon wouldn't he?) so it would probably zap a lot of Sam (and probably Dean's) strength.

I feel like it could be Sam's blood that they will use to inject the demon but I wonder if his purification is only complete after the last trial has been completed. In the film reel the blood was purified simply by going to confession, so they could us someone else's (those whose I have no idea...).

Abbadon as the Queen of Hell would rock!

Also, I thought that Show had run out of ways to make character death meaningful by now, but with Sarah and all of the other people they saved, I've been proven wrong. :(

Oh good lord I know. That's pretty much why I think it was good thinking on their part. They really had to up the ante with this death and make the boys really question what they are doing. It was brutal and adds to the many deaths that they already have on their consciences. :((
10th-May-2013 02:07 am (UTC)
I pretty much agree with everything you say except for Cas trying to make it all up to Dean. Despite Cas being around forever and ever, if his mind is being wiped again and again, it makes sense that he is still rather childlike with regard to his human reactions and interactions. I did like the scenes with him knocking things over because it makes sense that he does not consider these things. (And the reactions of the "virgin" honestly made me LOL.) Cas has been part of this story for so long (for us) that we think he should get it. Except that he spends a whole lot of time angel transporting in and out when he isn't waging war in Heaven, battling to become God, memory wiped as Emmanuel, partaking of Sam's crazy cakes (which he caused), and then hanging out in purgatory. He gets pulled from purgatory by scheming Naomi who is mucking around in his head. So, for me Dean says it best. Cas is a child and, like a child, he wants to make it up to Dean. Dean is also acting like a child as he tends to do when he feels personally betrayed. I can't quite explain what I mean here but, even though Dean will protect Sam to the the death (literally) I don't think he felt personally betrayed when Cas broke the wall. Angry as all get out but the betrayal wasn't quite the personal affront.

I tend to agree with everything you say about the scenes with Metatron. After his introduction, I found him disappointing this week. Last week, his scenes with Sam and Dean and his conversation with Dean especially seemed to have some weight. The introducton of the Heaven trials and the initial trial did not make sense. It has always made sense to me that Dean would be instrumental with regard to the heaven tablet because of the symmetry of it all. At the very least, I would think that the trials can only be undertaken by humans. Then, tonight, I got to wondering if this is Metatron at all. Could this be Naomi manipulation? Metatron is no longer in hiding. Castiel lost the tablet. It's a long shot, though, and he did mention something about stories. How would Naomi know about that? Idk. Something is up with that, I hope.

I agree about Sam and Cas. It's high time we see them interact sans Dean or Dean adjacent. . I do think they have made way more of an effort this season than ever before, though, with Cas coming to get Sam back in the mid season opener because they needed him or even because he wanted to and Sam saying "it's Cas." And back when Cas helped him get into Fred's cartoon world mind. So I do have to give them credit where credit is due.

And I always watch the preview, even though I am trying to stay spoiler free. This one either spoiled me or it was one of those red herring, bait and switch sort of previews. But it's not like I couldn't have already speculated what I saw in the preview given the Road so Far, which, now that I think about it often spoils me more than the previews do. LOL.

The bit with Sarah really gutted me because I kept thinking they'd save her right up to the last minute. I kept thinking that they wouldn't go there, would they? (Duh, why does it always take me by surprise!)

I also agree that seeing her again really highlights the changes in Sam? It's like we have noticed but not really and it took this person from the distant past to bring it home. And that expression on Dean's face!! I am always amazed when they can convey SO MUCH with a look!

Crowley was so scarily cunning!
11th-May-2013 07:38 am (UTC)
Despite Cas being around forever and ever, if his mind is being wiped again and again, it makes sense that he is still rather childlike

Yeah. I can actually accept that. I mean, I suppose I'd like the show to acknowledge it somehow. It might have been why Dean said something like - you keep doing this. I didn't make the connection that it could be because of the mind wipe. He just isn't learning. I suppose from a viewers perspective (well, for me anyway) it's just get tiring seeing all these different Cas's without any progress. If he's back to child-like Cas then we have to go through all that growth again. And I did see growth. I thought the episode before when he could see right from wrong and he found a path of protecting the tablet.

And I get that the scene in the store was there for a mixture of laughs and awwwwwwws but as we've seen this before it wasn't really working for me (where it has in the past).

I don't think he felt personally betrayed when Cas broke the wall. Angry as all get out but the betrayal wasn't quite the personal affront.

Yeah, this makes sense also. I have no issue with Dean being mad with Cas. I think it's totally within his character and reasonable. I think I'm just feeling much the same as I do with childlike Cas. We've been here before. But, maybe that's the point.

I am hoping there is more to Metatron than meets the eye. I did like him the week before - so to come out of hiding and go straight into wanting to shut the gates of heaven - I'd say something is up. Whether it's do to with Naomi, I suppose we'll have to wait and see. It seems strange to me that we've had quite a number of episodes regarding the hell gates and then suddenly, in one episode, we have one trial already completed for the heaven gates. Either they are planning to get those trials done all in one episodes or that part of the story will be continued next season).

I also agree that they have made more of an effort with Sam and Cas and I think I am liking the subtly of it.

And I much prefer scarily cunning Crowley than sledge hammer, growly Crowley. :) More of that and then WHAM! No more! (or cured maybe....). Hee, he could become the boys ally in the next season rather than his enemy. That would be amusing.

10th-May-2013 02:23 am (UTC)
I feel like I keep missing your episode posts and don't catch up until DAYS later. I LURK THOUGH -- your posts and the comments are always so fascinating. :D


I liked this episode, not my favorite of the season but it was fast paced and interesting.

I've not watched the trailer or read spoilers, but I'm with everyone else who feels Cas doing the trials is a red flag. I think a human (perhaps Dean?) was meant to do the trials and having Cas kill that girl is meant to prevent something. IDK, seems a legit theory to me.

And when he runs off with Metatron/Marv Cas doesn't tell Sam and Dean where he's going? Doesn't leave them a note? Nothing? Dean's already pissed at him, and he obviously recognizes this because he's trying to 'restock' for Dean. What would it take to let Sam and Dean know? So dumb, dumber because it's been done so many times already. I wish there was more Sam and Cas scenes because the Sam and Dean scenes make me yawn.
And what is all of Marv's talk about family supposed to mean? Which family is Cas supposed to be loyal to?

Do TPTB even know what they want to do with Cas in the long run? I feel like it's the cylon conspiracy all over again -- AND THERE WAS NO PLAN.
/rants

I also thought some of the dialogue was poorly written and felt a bit unnatural. Usually a line or two will feel that way now and then but it felt more common this episode. And a bit more widespread? IDK, maybe it's simply where I focused that awkward feeling you mention - the part where you can't just put your finger on what keeps it from being squeeful.
*shrugs*

BUT... I started out this comment saying I like the episode and I did. I liked the set up, even if some of it leaving Abadon alone so she could escape was so obviously a plot device that they didn't have time to do well and wound up feeling rushed.

I left wondering if it would be Abadon or Crowley that they 'saved' and now I'm wondering if it'll be something more unexpected, like Sam himself.

wow... I got wordy. \o/
11th-May-2013 02:32 pm (UTC)
Thanks hun! I always find people leave the most interesting thoughts on the episodes.

I like the theory that Cas doing the trials is a red flag. Which in some ways is sad for him because again he's being influenced by other forces. But it does leave it open for Dean to maybe to the heaven trials.

Which family is Cas supposed to be loyal to?

I think that's a really interesting question and one that Cas has to figure out. I wonder when he'll actually learn to trust Sam and Dean and finally consider then his family.

Do TPTB even know what they want to do with Cas in the long run?

They actually need to kill him off but they are just not game to. I think he really drags the story down (and I'm not saying that because I don't like Cas) because they keep having to give him purpose. And they just can't seem to settle on one thing for him. It's kinda driving me nut.

And I'm the same. I really didn't mind the episode - there were some great moments, I just don't think it was as good (or as tight) as it could have been.

And wordy is good! <33 (have you seen the stuff I spout?!)

xx
10th-May-2013 03:40 am (UTC)
hi, i didnt watch, but i found out what happened reading reviews the next day and ive read many reviews saying they were made to look stupid with the Abbandon thing and you say it too and its true? i wouldnt like to see that
11th-May-2013 02:33 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that was a weak moment in the episode. But there's enough good stuff to make it worth watching. :DD
10th-May-2013 03:02 pm (UTC)
I'm with you. Some great moments, some kick ass, heart breaking acting from Jared, but a lot of mechanics - ie, pieces being slotted into place in a rather rushed fashion in preparation for the finale.

And I can't help it, but I am DONE with Cas. Just. Done.
11th-May-2013 02:40 pm (UTC)
jared's really pulling out the stops in these final episodes. It's killing me!! (In such a wonderful way!).

And I am so with you re Cas. I am trying (so very trying!!) to get on board with Cas because he's part of this world and I gotta accept him. But I keep thinking how un-messy everything would be if they just got rid of him once and for all. How much more simple the stories could be (I think I also hold a bit of bitterness toward him because of how divisive he's been in fandom. *yikes* There. I said it. *hides*).

*stares at pic in Jared icon* instant cheering up. :))
xoxo
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