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just enough to make us dangerous
9.15 episode reaction/review (mostly thinky actually…) 
5th-Mar-2014 09:49 pm
Discussion / no weapons discharge


Oh Show, could you be more obvious…?

The answer = NO!

I came off the episode laughing like a loon - eye rolling and saying…"really show? You think we need to be blatantly told what's going on between Sam and Dean?"

Then I thought, actually… YES WE DO! And thank you in fact.

I really enjoyed this episode. I sit down to watch each episode with absolute dread. With the boys at odds with each other I wonder what they're going to do to make things worse (or make Sam even more of a "bad" brother).

I was relieved that things seemed to actually progress and the tension between them was more understandable (still sad but with a WHOLE episode devoted to the current situation between them, I'm pretty satisfied).

Aside from the extremely heavy handed parallels there was a lot to enjoy in this one.

The opener was scary (actually scary!!) and I like the mystery of what the MoTW could be. The Ghostfacers were fun (I've always enjoyed them actually) and I'm glad they kept them in character (even as AU Sam and Dean). There were some funny lines and some nice outsider POVs of the boys (I love hearing how terrified others are of Sam and Dean).

So. Sam and Dean (ha! didn't take me long to get here). It's weird that an episode that featured two other characters so heavily was basically one full episode of Sam and Dean stuff. (\o/) And isn't is interesting that they chose to tell their story through other characters? I know it came across as ridiculously anvillious (sp?) but I actually think it was an interesting choice to blatantly show us their story through Ed and Harry's story. We can't be objective when we watch Sam and Dean - we are too attached to them (and usually have strong alliances to one or the other) so we can't step back and look at what they are going through with a clear understanding.

I think this was an attempt for the Show to actually tell us what the major issues are (for them - the Show). Did we need them to do that? Considering all the in fighting in fandom, probably. Did them treating us like..um..children help us to get a clearer picture? Personally, I would rather they didn't (I prefer subtle storytelling) but I am somewhat grateful that they did.

There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly. Which I think is ok, but for the Show I think they needed to get it all back to the issues at hand (for them - not us).

And it's pretty simple. If we assume Dean is Ed and Sam is Harry the story was laid out for us. Ed was clinging onto something that he holds very dear (a great friendship/partnership and an exciting, meaningful life) and when he realised he was going to lose Harry he tricked him into staying by creating Thinman. Harry was off to seek a "normal" life with his girlfriend but Ed convinced him to stay. And Ed stayed. Even though he was pining for his girlfriend he got back into the life with new vigour and enthusiasm. The partnership clearly meant a lot to Harry also. Then he discovered he'd been lied to by his best friend, he lost trust in him and his world fell apart. Ed realises he's about to lose Harry and his world starts to crumble also.

I didn't feel like they were being particularly judgemental of Ed and Harry (and thus Sam and Dean). Ed came clean (through his guilt and concern for Harry) and we could see how much the partnership meant to him. Harry felt betrayed and hurt because he discovered his friend's lie. I admit, Harry's story hit me harder because I don't believe that killing people or lying about something makes for a strong relationship. I could see where Ed was coming from though (especially when comparing him to Dean), but I felt it made Harry more sympathetic (or is that just me? Dammit, I hope not).

This is possibly the closest we are going to get to Sam's pov. We've had to see it through Harry's story - but at least we've seen it. And what I got from that is that it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret. And yes, there are all those other issues as well, but I think what Show tried to do is show us why Sam is so pissed (not that we needed that but, yeah, clearly we did).

Something that was extraordinarily clear to me was how much the brotherhood means to Sam. He desperately doesn't want to be in this situation (he looked so gaunt and stressed) - and if Harry is Sam we could see how gutted he was by the whole situation. He desperately wants to forgive but, as he says, there are just some things that are hard to forgive. I was once asked why Sam stayed with Dean. What's in it for him? I believe it's because he knows how wonderful their brotherhood is (loved that childhood memory moment!) and doesn't want to lose that. He knows what a good team they make. I saw a post that mentioned that even soulless!Sam knew that being with Dean was the right place to be. But he still needs something from Dean. Dean, just like Ed, can't see that certain things (like keeping major secretes and killing people) don't make for a strong relationship.

Carver is still hung up on Sam wanting a normal life (even though he given that up a few times) and hung up on Dean not being able to let go of Sam (of which he did at the end of S5). As much as we've been through all this before, I am prepared to go for this ride because it might mean them reaching a long lasting reconciliation. And this seems to continue the Epic Love Story of Sam and Dean. :)

And now for the (probably) unpopular opinion. *ducks*

As I mentioned in a meta I wrote recently, because Dean represents family and the desire to have this partnership (no matter the cost) we sympathise with him. I think much of the S9 storyline is about Dean's emotional growth. I know that many don't think that Dean has much to change (he's the mighty hero and best brother) but he really does. I know it kills us to think that the very thing that is being questioned here is Dean's need for Sam. His need for family (The "then" ended on Sam's "you did it for yourself" -that was there to highlight this issue). But just like Ed, who also had that need, it leads him to make dubious (even wrong) decisions. We don't want that co-dependence to be questioned (it's what the show is all about!!), but I actually think that's what they are doing. They are digging deep into what makes Dean tick and if they get this right it could end up being really interesting. I don't think it means we'll have a brotherhood that is less passionate than we've seen before (or even less co-dependent). But it should make for a stronger, more even relationship. One that doesn't end up completely tearing each other apart.

I feared that they were going to make Sam being pissed off with Dean the catalyst for him going dark side. It still might be part of it but I think it will be more about Dean looking inward and seeing things in himself that will be the trigger (and possibly the Mark).

It was curious how easily Dean killed that guy. Slid the knife in so coldly. In the past they've talked about not killing people - it's where they draw the line (aside from meat suits obviously!), but Dean seemed to have no concerns about that this time. It makes me wonder if this is a sign he's going dark side, or if this is just part of Dean's character. We know he's a killer, but it's usually done with a little more torment than that. Dean was very threatening to the Ghostfacers and not willing to listen to Sam's ideas because he didn't want to think they'd be involved. Dean remained stubborn due to his feelings about them.

And Sam didn't push him - just waited patiently for him to come to the conclusion for himself. And I liked how Sam looked like he was going to call Dean on killing that guy, but held back. For everybody who says that Sam deliberately hurts Dean there was a lot of evidence tonight of how much he doesn't want to. And to those who think Sam doesn't care about him - did you see the panic when Thinman was going to kill him?! It's not gone people…

I think the most positive thing about this episode is that whereas Harry walked away from Ed, Sam didn't walk away from Dean. He hasn't. Sam and Dean were told last week by Kevin that they are both alive and need to work their shit out. This week Harry talks about not growing old with the person you thought you'd always be with and BOTH brothers are pained by that. They know that's what is at stake here. The fact that Sam is talking about forgiveness and that Dean is hearing Sam mention how damaging secrets are has to be a step forward.

I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.

There's so much more to dig into re the Ed and Harry and Sam and Dean parallels. They were like lead weights being dropped throughout the show, but as the episode had a kind of Scooby-Doo feel about it, maybe it was all part of the plan.

No doubt, the Ed and Harry stuff will be open to interpretation also, but I felt that it was much clearer than anything we've had so far about where the boys are at (or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?).

And finally. Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)
Comments 
5th-Mar-2014 02:24 pm (UTC)
You always manage to write what I'm trying to think. LOL

5th-Mar-2014 02:33 pm (UTC)
Heehee..

(oh man, distracted like WOAH by your icon…O_O :D)
5th-Mar-2014 02:29 pm (UTC)
We can't be objective when we watch Sam and Dean - we are too attached to them...so we can't step back and look at what they are going through with a clear understanding.

Good point!

My first reaction to this ep was 'oy, the anvils' but upon mulling it over, it does work, like you say, to let us look at the boys' situation as a parallel. And it not a complete parallel, which is what makes it food for thought:

Ed didn't want Harry to go live a normal life.
Dean didn't want Sam to die.

Both are generated from a selfish point of view, but Ed took away Harry's choices of what kind of life he could have. Dean took away Sam's choice to die.

Man, I hope you are right, that seeing the Ghostfacers break up will make the boys really think about reconciling...

One thing I need to rewatch--did Dean stab the skinny guy or was he trying to stop the guy from killing himself? I couldn't tell. If Dean did kill him, I would wonder if that was the Mark's influence, but that would be awfully subtle in a show full of anvils...Also, his reaction to Harry shooting the deputy--Dean put his hand out and lowered Harry's gun--just seemed to mean like Dean understood the effect killing a person was going to have on Harry.

As always, your insights make me think more!
5th-Mar-2014 02:43 pm (UTC)
Hi,

Oh yes definitely lots of anvils - so many that I HAVE to think it was meant to be done that way (I was groaning at some of them).

And yes to those comparisons.

Man, I hope you are right, that seeing the Ghostfacers break up will make the boys really think about reconciling…

I really had the feeling that they are starting to see that what they have is worth fighting for. Also, we KNOW they will be back together -it's just a matter of when.

did Dean stab the skinny guy or was he trying to stop the guy from killing himself?

It was murky wasn't it? I got the feeling it was Dean killing him - especially after seeing Sam's face. But I'd have to watch it again to see if they guy was trying to kill himself. I think if that was so, Dean wouldn't have stopped him. Maybe?

just seemed to mean like Dean understood the effect killing a person was going to have on Harry.

Yeah. I think that's something Dean would understand. I also think that Dean was so mean to Ed and Harry because he knows what they are doing could get them killed. Or worse, actually turn them into people like themselves. Hunting the supernatural isn's a good life and I think he wanted to protect Ed and Harry from that.
5th-Mar-2014 02:31 pm (UTC)
This is possibly the closest we are going to get to Sam's pov. We've had to see it through Harry's story - but at least we've seen it.

I so hope you are wrong here!!! I want to see Sam's POV through Sam (and acted out by Jared) not through a secondary character who is one of my least favourites on the show. (That said, I did enjoy this ep more than I thought I would, given how much I dislike the Ghostfacers). I actually squealed when Sam sat down with Harry, thinking 'yeah, Sam is finally going to have a meaningful, in depth conversation with someone other than Dean, someone who has been through something vaguely similar though nowhere near as serious as what Dean did to Sam, someone who can sympathise with Sam and understand the hurt, someone who won't just tell him to 'get over it''

I may have even fist pumped when he started talking about how some things just can't be forgiven. Should have known not to get so excited.(I had similar hopes for Sam getting to talk to Grandpa Henry after Dean stormed out of the motel room but they had Sam leave as well). Dean comes in and what had so much potential was gone.
5th-Mar-2014 02:48 pm (UTC)
I so hope you are wrong here!!!

Hee! Me too! I don't want this to be the case but seeing has how they seem to have trouble giving us Sam's pov on this issue, they've chosen to show us Harry's instead. OR it might just be that Sam could relate to Harry and have a clearer understanding about what's been bothering him. *shrugs* I don't really know.

I actually squealed when Sam sat down with Harry,

Oh I did too! I actually said out loud "go into the room". I nearly fell over when he did. He didn't get a long scene, but at least it was something. And, to be honest, I think he said the most important thing to Harry - some things are harder to forgive.

I was pleased to get more insight into Sam this episode. And Dean - though I think we'll be getting a lot more on his headspace in coming episodes.

5th-Mar-2014 02:50 pm (UTC)
Yes. Yes. 100% agreement to all of this.

There's been many discussiosn/arguments about the Winchesters current situation and I think this is mainly due to it all being a little too subtle. Or rather, ambiguous. Much has been left open to interpretation. And boy, interpretations have differed wildly.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. A little too much has been left open to interpretation, if you ask me, and that's definitely the problem. The brothers don't finish conversations or sentences, so it's left up to this divided fandom to interpret what's not been said, what Sam and Dean are thinking? No, thanks. I've gotten to the point where I'll only engage conversation with those who can see the ambiguity of the brothers' situation.

And yes, Show IS treating us like children. We've been acting like spoiled brats and we damn well deserve it. (Am I a bit miffed with fandom RN? You betcha.) ;)

it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret. And before you all yell at me that that makes Sam's hypocritical (hello Ruby), it surely has to be about what Sam has learned from keeping that secret

This, so, SO much. The possession plotline was NEVER about non-con, it was about trust and secrets. (And darn it, even when Dean wanted to come clean and tell Sam what was going on, Gadreel either used the threat over Sam's life to frighten him out of it, or took Sam over at crucial moments.) Dean had no intention of keeping that secret as long as he did -- a lot of that was Gadreel's influence. I totally agree with your observation about Sam, Ruby, and Sam's learning process. Sam knows what damage withholding the truth can do to a relationship -- of course he's going to be ticked to find that Dean has done the same thing.

I no longer see Sam being angry. He's just sad now and more wistful about where they've come. Dean is deeply troubled - which I think is a mix of how Sam has reacted to finding out about Gadreel and Kevin's death.

Again, agreed. Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door. Has little reaction to Dean's reminiscence of the good old days. And Dean, man. Because of the lack of communication, all Dean sees is Sam turning away and "rejecting" him. (Gotta say I do think things will get worse before they get better. I'm positive that Cain's mark is causing the bad side-effects that Cain tried to warn Dean about. Dean didn't listen to the warnings, so he's unaware; Sam glanced at the Mark only the one time, has referred to it not once, and IDK, may have forgotten it exists. And, of course, they're both at odds right now, so less chance to notice that anything's wrong. Dean will go darkside, and it'll be up to Sam to recognize what's going on and -- I hope! -- save his brother.)

(or am I going to find out that everyone thinks Harry is a douche and should instantly forgive Ed because he tricked him because he loves having him around do much?)

Lord, I hope not. I've already lost enough faith in fandom, thanks.

Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)

Yes, please. :D

*hugs you and your blessedly level-headed self*
5th-Mar-2014 03:15 pm (UTC)
"Sam hasn't been "angry" for a while. To me, he's more melancholy -- a couple of times now, it looked as if he wanted to reconnect, but didn't have the (faith?) (energy?) to see things through. So he goes into his room and shuts the door."

Absolutely. I've been saying this for a long while - Sam's anger no longer fuels him and it's as though he's not found a substitute for it since Dean was lost in Purgatory or maybe even before that. Melancholy is a very good word for it.
5th-Mar-2014 04:03 pm (UTC)
Your unpopular opinion is pretty spot-on to me!

I feared that they were going to make Sam being pissed off with Dean the catalyst for him going dark side. It still might be part of it but I think it will be more about Dean looking inward and seeing things in himself that will be the trigger (and possibly the Mark).

OMG, THIS. And it makes me so relieved that Sam is releasing a lot of his anger (okay, turning it to melancholy but there's been much discussion of Sam's depression, so I think it fits.) We'd never hear the end of it if Dean went darkside and it was because Sam was being a mad meanie. Cough.

I ended up liking this episode, ham-fistedness and all. We definitely got some Sam POV (and I do hope that's not the last of it! Maybe Jenny Klein can become our champion for Sam viewpoint. We should tweet her.) And the Superman/Batman bit was such a breath of fresh air!
5th-Mar-2014 04:14 pm (UTC)
We definitely got some Sam POV

I think they missed a HUGE opportunity to have real Sam POV in there, particularly in the scene with just him and Harry. This is the second time (along with Cas in 9.11) that we've had side characters talking at Sam instead of us hearing what Sam is thinking/feeling.
5th-Mar-2014 04:08 pm (UTC)
t it's the secret that's hurt him the most

Ugh, show.

The problem I had with the most obvious ~normal life~ parallel is that it just does not fit the current situation. What are we paralleling with that exactly? Sam left Amelia of his own volition last season, once before Dean even showed up again, and again when Dean pretty much let him go mid-season. Dean's current actions have nothing to do with forcing Sam to give up some normal life that we've seen he doesn't actually seem to want anymore (or at least has given up of his own free will as recently as last season).

The end was obviously setting up darkside Dean via the Mark. It was eye-rollingly deliberate, especially with Sam's reaction to it. I'm 100% positive (you can hold me to this prediction later! :D)

The moral I got from this episode is that Ginger Beard = Lying Bastard.

ETA: I do this is supposed to serve as a cautionary tale, a sort of "How the Winchesters do NOT want to end up", if you will.

Edited at 2014-03-05 04:16 pm (UTC)
6th-Mar-2014 01:37 pm (UTC)
The problem I had with the most obvious ~normal life~ parallel is that it just does not fit the current situation.

I got the feeling that the "normal life" was an attempt at saying (rather loudly) that Harry is representing Sam rather than representing S8 Sam (or the Sam that wanted a normal life). I think the parallels were directly related to what's going on with them now. They couldn't show the exact situation - just the "couldn't lose you so I had to trick you" parallel. I don't think the "normal" played into it much at all.

The moral I got from this episode is that Ginger Beard = Lying Bastard.

Yeah, and as much as I hate to say it out loud, I think that's what we were meant to be left thinking about Dean. It doesn't entirely work because we don't want to think that Ed and Dean could be in any way the same, but I pretty much think that's what the ep was trying to do. Though we have a much better understanding of why Dean did what he did so there'd be a lot more sympathy for Dean (compared to Ed).

I've heard some say that this ep was about Dean being able to see Sam's side of things, but I (personally) didn't get that so much. We never got a "oh now I know what Sam's been on about" from Dean (did we?). I think what happened was more about us getting a clearer picture of what was upsetting Sam (because, clearly the show can't tell us via Sam himself ::boo::). And the fact that "secrets damaging a relationship" was the actual thing that was mentioned makes me think that's what Sam is most pissed about and will be the thing he'll have to forgive. I hope I'm wrong. I'd love there to be SO much more wrapped up in this story (particularly the issues you mention in the above thread), but the non con aspect of what Dean did has never been highlighted. I think it's in the subtext (how can it not be) but Sam doesn't seem concerned about that part (maybe because it's happened to him so many times he accepts it as something that's destined to happen to him).

And yes - I think this was a wake up call to both brothers about how things could end up if they don't get their shit sorted out.

And dark!Dean will definitely be a thing. It'll be curious to find out if the killing in this ep was due to the Mark or not. It was so damn subtle I thought (so have even questioned if Dean actually killed him). If it was I think we'd have had a shot of the Mark. I can't believe they'd throw something that subtle in when everything was so heavy handed.
5th-Mar-2014 04:14 pm (UTC)
I was relieved that things seemed to actually progress and the tension between them was more understandable (still sad but with a WHOLE episode devoted to the current situation between them, I'm pretty satisfied).

I felt the same exact way. And ditto to all you said about Sam no longer seeming angry. I liked the little light moment between them when Dean reminisced about them being kids in their superhero costumes, and Dean taking him to the ER on his bike.

And oh goodness, yes... I was so happy that Sam didn't walk away from Dean despite Harry walking away from Ed. And you could see both of them were pained when Harry mentioned the whole "growing old" thing.

Despite all the heavy-handedness (though like you said, I think Show did need to hit people over the head with it given all the infighting taking place in fandom), I enjoyed this one too. I've always enjoyed the Ghostfacers.
6th-Mar-2014 01:41 pm (UTC)
I liked the little light moment between them when Dean reminisced about them being kids in their superhero costumes, and Dean taking him to the ER on his bike

It was such a lovely moment to show that Sam as good memories and is willing to share them with Dean (can I just say I was TERRIFIED that they were going to make Sam ignore Dean and give fandom even more reasons to hate him).
5th-Mar-2014 06:38 pm (UTC)
It was blatant, wasn't it? While I first thought they should have done it more subtle I started to notice how the obvious reflected on Sam and Dean. How they felt for both Ghostfacers more and more and so developed more.. idk.. compassion for each other in the process. Not on the surface, but inside. A better understanding of their situation, outside the box of their personal emotions. I liked that. I enjoyed the whole episode. :)

I also think maybe with fandom being so torn apart and complainy on many levels, maybe they need such an obvious explanation/display of what Show is trying to convey. Or maybe it's just Carver, incapable of subtlety. lol. Who knows?

I personally don't quite understand why everyone says often that we get so little of Sam's point of view. We get his looks, moments, and his general attitude that shows how he feels. His silence often speaks quite loudly to me. But maybe it just works for my personal way of watching. ;)

So yes, good episode that seems to have left our boys thoughtful, which is a step into the right direction. :)

xx
6th-Mar-2014 01:58 pm (UTC)
How they felt for both Ghostfacers more and more and so developed more.. idk.. compassion for each other in the process. Not on the surface, but inside.

Yes. I think much of this episode was also about them seeing their own situation mirrored and maybe getting a better understanding of things. It might not be until the next couple of episodes that we see how much they have learned - but I felt it was a step in the right direction at least. :)

I personally don't quite understand why everyone says often that we get so little of Sam's point of view. We get his looks, moments, and his general attitude that shows how he feels. His silence often speaks quite loudly to me.

It's true that Sam has little moments to let us know what's happening. I think it's more that we don't always get the camera stay on Sam long enough to make it really clear what's going on in his head (especially in the last few episodes). Like following Dean into his room so we could see how hardened he was becoming but we are left to guess what might be going on in Sam's head (in the last episode). It didn't cross my mind that Dean keeping secrets was the big thing that was worrying Sam - until this episode (I thought it was all the other stuff that was the big deal for Sam). We've had some little moments to see how cut up he is about Kevin - but nothing about how he feels about having an angel inside him all that time (which makes me think it's just not an issue for the Show).

5th-Mar-2014 08:14 pm (UTC)
wow... i agree with everything *i got nothin' to add except, you have made me understand the episode a lot more, thank you!
6th-Mar-2014 01:58 pm (UTC)
Oh that's good to hear! :))
5th-Mar-2014 09:23 pm (UTC)
I love your idea about some introspection being the trigger for Dean going dark side. That would be glorious. (Mmmmm, character driven. Nom nom nom.)

I've often felt some of the parallels made in SPN eps were very anvil heavy (for some reason the Rugaru episode springs to mind here) so I'm kind of okay with that. I enjoyed this ep overall.

And finally. Any ep that has bound and gagged boys is gonna be a winner in my books. Just saying…;)
Yep! Plus, an episode with Sam and Dean back in a motel (with an interesting mural) always makes me smile. Win win win.
6th-Mar-2014 02:07 pm (UTC)
I love your idea about some introspection being the trigger for Dean going dark side.

It would be interesting I think. It depends how much his guilt will play a part - Dean could get lost in guilt if he's not careful and it might prevent him from actually going deeper and understanding the real issues. But we'll see.

with an interesting mural

I squeeed when I saw the mural (and I actually think it's one we've seen before). :))
5th-Mar-2014 09:36 pm (UTC)
I hope the fandom can now simmer down a bit. It probably won't but a girl can hope, right? ;)

Personally, I kinda don't think that the Mark had anything to do with Dean cold-bloodedly killing Thinman. It didn't even occur to me that it culd be so, and if Show really wanted us to think that, it would've included Cain and his warning in the previouslies. It's a cool idea that the Mark's slowly influencing him, but there are so many plot lines going on that I don't think show would leave it up to the viewers to keep track of all of them without reminding them. It could be that I'm wrong, though (and I wouldn't mind.
6th-Mar-2014 02:12 pm (UTC)
I hope the fandom can now simmer down a bit.

One can only hope!

it would've included Cain and his warning in the previous lies.

I agree. It was far too subtle. Though it would be cool if they did show the Mark influencing his actions. I mean, the Mark is going to be playing a major part in the finale I think so they may be building up a picture of that soon.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what they plan to do with the Mark. :)
5th-Mar-2014 11:07 pm (UTC)
I'll come back and read the thinky after dinner but really....just this. ;-)



Edited at 2014-03-06 12:31 am (UTC)
6th-Mar-2014 03:59 am (UTC)
Just a bit more, kudos to Jenny Klein for creating the scariest teaser in a while. I actually liked the episode well enough. I'm going to have to go back and watch Dean and the bad guy wrestle with the knife. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dean did kill him. I think the notion of "we don't kill people" went out the window a while back judging from when the last time was that anybody rattled off an exorcism. The line between monster and not-monster has blurred a lot too, especially in the last season or so.

I don't remember exactly what Sam said but when he was talking to Harry about forgiving, he said there were things you could forgive and things you couldn't and that you had to figure out which was which for yourself. Seems like Sam's been trying to figure out where the line is for a while now. Even if you do forgive whatever it is, that doesn't mean that your relationship isn't permanently changed, especially with trust issues. Ed and Dean both seem to be having a hard time realizing that. Doesn't mean the relationship is over but it won't ever be what it was.

I have to admit to not being terribly concerned about Ed and Harry and their break-up. It probably says something about me that I was watching the last close-ups of Ed's face saying to myself "if he cries one perfect tear, I'm going to drop an anvil on the TV."

6th-Mar-2014 03:50 am (UTC)
you know, I was too busy rolling my eyes at the bountiful anvils to really think the parallelism had much merit, but you make a great point about objectivity. and in light of that, I appreciated how Harry (Sam) was just as crushed by the separation as Ed(Dean).

if this is Dean's season of growth, do you think he ever grew before? especially compared to Sam's emotional journey?
6th-Mar-2014 02:52 pm (UTC)
Oh hi you! I've been wondering how you've been doing. :)

if this is Dean's season of growth, do you think he ever grew before? especially compared to Sam's emotional journey?

Oooh, that's an interesting questions. To be honest I have no idea if this is meant to be Dean's season of growth. I think he's "grown" before. I think S5 was a big eye opener for him and he grew heaps going into the finale. But, Carver is revisiting all that again so he's back to the Dean who can't let Sam go, he's full of guilt, dark thoughts and consequently low self worth. Dean has come out of all that in the past AND has seen that Sam is his own person. So yes, I think he's grown before (much the same way Sam has reconciled wanting a "normal" life) but Carver is re-hashing character arcs that Kripke introduced.

The only way this can work as a second time around is if they actually make long lasting progress. Sam's desire for a normal life wasn't totally reconciled last season (I didn't think), so I'm not how well they'll resolve Dean's this season. We'll see though….

6th-Mar-2014 05:40 am (UTC)
With Ed and Harry, it's a similar situation to what Sam and Dean are going through, but there's big differences, too. It's not about Sam wanting a normal life, and the reason for the lie is different, too... Sam's life was at stake.

And what I got from that is that it's the secret that's hurt him the most. Not the non-con possession (and as much some of us would like this to be a major issue, it's not been the Show's concern from the get-go), not that Dean made a choice for him, not that Sam wanted to die and Dean should have let him (which I don't believe actually), not that Sam is ungrateful for what Dean did or that he doesn't want to have a brotherhood. It's that Dean tricked him and he kept it secret.

We know that Sam is upset that Dean made a choice for him, and the other things you mention are big issues for him, too. He said what he did about secrets, because that's what Ed was talking about. All the other stuff that's bothering Sam isn't going to be brought up at that time.

About your "unpopular opinion", I think you can guess what I'd say about it. ;)

The best part for me is when Sam freaked when he thought that Thinman was going to kill Dean. And the childhood memory moment. :)
6th-Mar-2014 03:06 pm (UTC)
It's not about Sam wanting a normal life, and the reason for the lie is different, too

I totally agree! (ha! something we can agree on). My feeling is that the "normal" part of Harry's story is for us to easily draw the conclusion that Harry represents Sam (not that we needed that particular anvil). They couldn't do the absolute exact story but the underlying theme of Ed not wanting Harry to leave and tricked him into staying is pretty much exactly the same. And that's not a judgement at all. The episode was SO anvillious that those parallels came out ridiculously clear.

All the other stuff that's bothering Sam isn't going to be brought up at that time.

Yes. Fair enough. I have since thought that not all of Sam's issues could be brought up in the one episode. I'm just glad that some were.

The best part for me is when Sam freaked when he thought that Thinman was going to kill Dean. And the childhood memory moment. :).

Agreed!! :))

Edited at 2014-03-06 03:08 pm (UTC)
6th-Mar-2014 11:28 pm (UTC)
The wonderful thing about Supernatural to me is that there always is the superficial and obvious story. The simple explanation and easy parallels. And then there is the story we have to go looking for. The subtle storytelling, that is tied together with interpretations, references and hints. To me, this episode was blatantly obvious with the mirrors being held up to Sam and Dean's faces. I had a hard time finding the subtle story.

Fannishliss wrote a great review in my opinion, she alerted me to the story underneath all the dropping lead.

Via interpretation it's possible to see that the obvious parallel between the Ghostfacers and brothers is making Sam think 'was what Dean did really unforgivable?'. Sam seeing the bigger picture of their lives and screwed-up-unclean-life-and-death choices they make on a daily basis is shown through:
- the fact that he DID want to go on a hunt with Dean (was even confused about Dean thinking he wouldn't);
- he DOES form a team with Dean even when at odds (no arguing in front of outsiders and no 'this is what I mean' when confronted with a similar situation);
- he IS very concerned when Dean's safety is at stake;
- and he is NOT giving up and walking away as he's done before.

To me this shows a great deal of Sam's POV. In my opinion Sam definitely wants to reconcile with Dean, he's not taking the easy way out. He just doesn't know how yet, because he also doesn't want to bypass his -justified- feelings of betrayal and the absence of agency caused by Dean.

I don't know if this makes any sense to you, I hope you don't mind me giving you my thoughts on the episode. I always love to read your posts, even if I don't usually comment. Don't know, I guess even lurkers sometimes need to come out of their corner... :)
8th-Mar-2014 07:12 am (UTC)
Hi,

Thanks for popping by. I love it when lurkers drop in. :)

And I agree! I think this was very much about giving us Sam's pov. For some reason the Show has difficulty allowing us into Sam's brain - so doing it via another character makes some sort of sense. It's wonderful that we got a chance to see all those things about Sam. I've never doubted for a minute that Sam feels all that. It's been puzzling to me that so many have thought that Sam doesn't love Dean or is worried about him etc. Just because Sam is pissed by Dean's actions doesn't mean he cares any less for him.

He just doesn't know how yet, because he also doesn't want to bypass his -justified- feelings of betrayal and the absence of agency caused by Dean.

Yes yes. I think Sam knows he has to make peace with what he's prepared to forgive. This episode seemed to say it's the secret that is the main issue, but I'd like to think three's much more too it than that. I don't think we got a chance to see it all, but at least we got a glimpse. More than we've had so far at least.

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