?

Log in

No account? Create an account
curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
Coupla things... (Musketeers & SPN) 
5th-May-2014 10:01 pm
Muffin?
Care of the lovely el1ie

First an interview with the gorgeous Tom Burke (who plays Athos in the wonderful The Musketeers). This is interesting because he mentions a certain quality in the Musketeer's relationship that now seems to be a "dirty" word in the Winchester's relationship:





It's taken 9 years for me to think that actually the Winchester brothers would be better apart. I hate feeling that because I have never felt that before. In between reading some interesting (and somewhat convincing) meta on how Dean has been abusing Sam for years and then reading other stuff on how Sam has been emotionally abusing Dean I've been thinking that with all this abuse they should just part and each of them would be so much better off.

But I really don't want to think that. I think there's certainly a level of abusive behaviours in their relationship but I still want to believe that their co-dependance is a strength (in the mad world they live in) and not as horrid as this season has somewhat painted it. I still have hope that this might be where we are heading in the future - that their bond/co-dependence is actually the thing that keeps them strong, positive and human (perhaps not this season, but definitely the next). In reality co-dependence is probably damaging, but in their life everything else is damaging so having to rely and depend on someone else is certainly the lesser of two (probable) evils.

At least the Musketeers wear that quality on their sleeves and we can see how their co-dependence is a strength not something that rips them apart (seriously, check out this show if you haven't).



The other thing that brought a smile to my face is re-watching el1ie's vid My Brother. Such fun and has all the brotherhood feels. :))
Comments 
5th-May-2014 02:23 pm (UTC)
It's taken 9 years for me to think that actually the Winchester brothers would be better apart. I hate feeling that because I have never felt that before.

**hugs** It hit me episode one of season eight, I too hate that feeling and I'm still waiting to get over it...yeah, read loads of abusive meta, can't say I agree with all of it, it has resonated in parts but show isn't and never has been set in my world where I'd have a different set of values, so can't say much about that.

THANK YOU for the rec - that's so sweet of you - as I said to you earlier, almost forgotten I'd made that and you did the wonderful beta with it and we had such a great time didn't we? That last line "My lovely, lovely brother" sold me on that song and deep down I still believe it and live in hope I'll see it again on the show.

The Musketeers has been a lovely distraction in the mean time. :))
5th-May-2014 02:43 pm (UTC)
I fought that feeling during S8 because I couldn't believe it was being set up for us to question their relationship. I can see it now and even though it's hard to watch I'm still holding on for dear life that we're in for some major major healing (and not just a dewy eyed hug that serves as a bandaid). I'm prepared to whether this storm if there's gong to be equal amounts of solid growth and healing.

And yes! we did have fun! I'd almost forgotten it too and it was such a delight to be reminded of it again today via twitter. :))

Yay Musketeers as a distraction! :)))
5th-May-2014 05:39 pm (UTC)
That vid! I commented over on Youtube but I'll just say again here - loved it! So funny and perfect.
6th-May-2014 08:28 am (UTC)
Thank you! It was one of those that kind of demanded making, wasn't sure if I could make it work, but it turned out a gem, so pleased you enjoyed. :))
5th-May-2014 04:26 pm (UTC)
In reality co-dependence is probably damaging, but in their life everything else is damaging so having to rely and depend on someone else is certainly the lesser of two (probable) evils.

I agree with this. Since S2, I've viewed the brotherly relationship as rather symbiotic, in that each needs the other to stay sane, a touchstone. Then Carver and crew began picking at the bond in S8, and turned that symbiosis into something poisonous. TBH, I dismiss 80% of the (recent) meta out there, as most Sam and Dean!girls alike have some bitter bones to pick, and tend to dump all blame squarely on the "other" brother. >.> But when someone as generally level-headed as you begins to think the brothers would be better apart, well . . . that's a problem.

I'm curious as to how you see the Musketeers' co-dependence as a good thing, while the Winchester co-dependence is not. I'm not keen to take on a new TV show, but maybe you can suggest an episode or two that demonstrates this?

Edited at 2014-05-05 04:27 pm (UTC)
5th-May-2014 11:12 pm (UTC)
But when someone as generally level-headed as you begins to think the brothers would be better apart, well . . . that's a problem.

I makes me sad too! I deep down don't want to think or believe that. I refuse to let Carver change my view of the boys. It's a struggle though because since S8 he's been driving this wedge between then and we've left asking - if they hurt each other this much they might be better off apart?

I mean, it's all for the story telling and I know they want to create this massive drama around them, I suppose I just wish he hadn't done it in a that way created such drama outside of the show too. Though I am left with tremendous hope that because we are asking that question he'll be giving us an answer that demonstrates (and confirms) that NO they aren't better off apart. :))

I'm curious as to how you see the Musketeers' co-dependence as a good thing, while the Winchester co-dependence is not.

Oh, it's presented completely differently. The Musketeers are a family and support each other (and would no doubt die for each other) - but it's a much lighter approach than the darkness we see on Supernatural. They're not dealing with selling souls or making deals to bring back lives. TBH, when Tom mentions co-dependence in the interview I was a little surprised to hear him describe their relationship like that. I suppose I measure my idea of watch co-depedence means by Sam and Dean - I realised after watching this interview that it can mean just relying on each other. In that respect there's not a lot of difference between the relationships.

In terms of episodes to rec. I'd say watch the first one. All the episodes demonstrate their bond but the series is sequential and it'd be hard to pick up one in the middle. The characters start to develop and I think it'd be more rewarding to see that progression. The first one will also give you an idea if you think you'll like it (which, I think you will). There's only 10 eps (I think it's 10. A small number anyway).

.
6th-May-2014 08:41 am (UTC)
TBH, when Tom mentions co-dependence in the interview I was a little surprised to hear him describe their relationship like that.

I think it's become his basis for Athos, I've seen and read quite a few bits and pieces from him and he's very much of the opinion that Athos needs the Musketeers, far more than they need him - which of course we know isn't true! But he does see Athos in a very dark and lonely place and the regiment, his friends and his brothers as the only things keeping him afloat and alive, and that they in turn need Athos and his steady nerve and experience to keep them alive, so in that mind frame I think you can see where he's coming from. The show reflects that too I think by only using 'that' phrase the once, it has meaning, it's earned and the cast themselves respect and understand what that means and won't parrot it in interviews at all - I like that and have high hopes for next season

But your right in the way that in parts of fandom, the Sam and Dean co-dependency is seen as the root of all their problems and for the last couple of years it's almost been the worst monster of the whole series, which I think is a shame, as we've said many a time, this bond of brotherhood and family is the show at it's very heart, why many of us tuned in - the buddy show in all it's glory - and it hurts so much to see it painted in such blood and misery. I hope they salvage some of it, not sure how now so much damage and hurt has been caused, but I'm willing to be enchanted by them again, if they'd just give me a glimmer of hope.

Edited at 2014-05-06 09:12 am (UTC)
6th-May-2014 10:10 am (UTC)
*nods* I definitely get that feel from Athos. I think he really does need his musketeers and they definitely need him. When they say All for One and One for All they mean it. Just love it.

And yes. The Winchester's co-dependence was once a thing to be celebrated by now it seems that all it does is create hurt. And actually, I have no issue with them exploring that (in fact, I think it's a worthy theme to examine), just as long as they come to some solid and positive conclusions about it. Even if to say - ok, it's not all that healthy, but in this dark world we live in it shine a light.

I don't think the next 3 eps will give us that. In fact, I am terrified for what we are going to get. I just hope they end on a somewhat positive note.
5th-May-2014 05:38 pm (UTC)
Argh to the first part but - thank you for that vid rec - I had tears of laughter in my eyes! Perfect song for those clips!
5th-May-2014 11:14 pm (UTC)
hehe yes. Argh to the first part (though Musketeers yay!).

And I'm so glad you enjoyed the vid! :))
6th-May-2014 01:25 am (UTC)
That video! I've loved it since I first saw it a few years ago. It's a little bittersweet now because those moments are so few and far between. Even the humor is so lacking these days. It breaks my heart. But I haven't given up yet either.
6th-May-2014 10:12 am (UTC)
It's great fun isn't it?! And yes - bittersweet is the right word. It's almost nostalgia these days.
6th-May-2014 05:17 am (UTC)
Oh how I have missed reading your SPN meta! I've been kind of on journal hiatus for a couple of months (though I've kept up with Show itself) and I'm looking forward to reading back through your SPN posts.

I, too, have hated the way the Winchesters' relationship has been written over the last couple of seasons. Things do change, in any relationship, and certainly no two people, however close, can just keep on living in each other's pockets for nine years under insane circumstances without conflict. I need to think it over more (and read more of your thoughts), but it doesn't feel like the writers have really earned the wedge they've driven between Sam and Dean.

thanks for the lovely vid rec. I'd never seen that, and it gave me such a nostalgic smile.
6th-May-2014 10:15 am (UTC)
Hi there!! It's been an up and down season for me - though I think I have (mostly) remained positive. It's only these last few episodes that have me worried that they really don't have a good, overall plan in mind. They made both characters do and say some awful things to each other. I don't want a quick fix (wounds are running too deep), but I really hope for a good solid fix in the not too distant future (though, I'm thinking S10 now).

But, we'll see. Perhaps a lot can be covered in 3 episodes.

Thanks for stopping by. welcome back! :)
8th-May-2014 08:31 pm (UTC)
I know that you're a much more clear-minded fan of Show than I am--that you've really studied the plot and have paid close attention, and have the ability to track the various plot threads and character arcs much better than I can.

And I must tell you, if I haven't already, that your posts on the ninth season have played a major role in my keeping the faith and sticking with the show, because I felt that they really don't have a good, overall plan in mind starting back in season 7.

But! But. I recently did a rewatch of the whole entire series (because retirement) and that, too, restored some of my faith in the showrunners and writers. I could perceive some through-lines, and lots of little details that tended to get lost in week-to-week and season-to-season watching took hold and stuck with me in a binge-watch.

On the other hand, rewatching from the perspective of Season Nine really, really, really underscores how brilliant the first four and a half seasons were, when Kripke was still on board and they thought they might still be aiming for a glorious finish. Since Season Six, the show has definitely suffered more from lack of clear direction.

Sorry to be so lengthy! But I still do love Show.
This page was loaded Sep 19th 2017, 10:41 pm GMT.