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10.16 poll and thoughts 
26th-Mar-2015 10:37 pm
Discussion / no weapons discharge
Poll #2005487 10.16 episode reaction

Episode 10.16 was...

Awesome! So much going on!
3(4.6%)
Pretty good! Interesting developments.
17(26.2%)
Ok. Some of it was interesting.
15(23.1%)
*meh* Tuned out for a lot of it.
25(38.5%)
Nope. I think I fell asleep. :(
5(7.7%)
Other
0(0.0%)




Not gonna lie, that episode bored me to tears. I fast forwarded most of it and listened to it with the voices at 1.5 speed. It made the voices funny and high pitched, but I got the gist of it. I just wasn't interested in the other story lines. I mean, I'm sure they were interesting enough, but I just don't care enough about Crowley and Rowena and that other witch to sit and listen to it all. And I definitely wasn't interested in the love story of the make-up wearing nun (sorry, but nuns waking up and putting make up on? Do they? Am I behind the times here?).

Dean hitting on the nun made me cringe and Sam being off screen for 86.5% of the ep made me sad.

But. The little bit we did have (Dean's confession and Sam's smarts) did salvage it quite a bit. And the twitter conversation I had after the episode made me feel a qazzillion times better about it. Not because the episode was suddenly "good" (for me), but because it generated good discussion and some interesting thinky thoughts.

The thinky:

I mentioned last week that we're seeing a lot of S3 in Sam and Dean's story arc at the moment. That played out again in this episode with Dean confessing he's scared of dying and Sam pleading with Dean to talk to him. In S3 it was Sam Dean confessed his fears to. In this episode it was a priest. Dean is keeping Sam out of the loop again - trying to do this by himself. It's very Dean - wanting to "protect" Sam and also not show his weakness. I sincerely hope this is all part of the an arc that sees Dean realising that he HAS to involve Sam - not only in his own decisions (and thoughts), but in decisions that effect Sam. Dean deciding that he doesn't want them to look for an solution to the Mark involves Sam SO much - it could end up killing Sam, so he needs to include Sam in what's on his mind. The more he shuts Sam out, the more Sam will go off on his own (which, I think will drive Sam to do just that).

And we saw this happen in this episode. It was the best thing about the episode for me. Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.

It felt like there was SO much going on in the very few scenes we had of the boys - but I find it hard to trust that they'll mean anything in future episodes (*hopes*). Sam is suddenly smart again (he can read ancient Italian it seems) and Dean is confessing that he wants to live (which, I'm afraid, is sigh-worthy to me because - what the hell? One minute he doesn't want a cure, then he does, then he doesn't and now he kinda does? Is this the Mark screwing with him? Is he battling an inner conflict that goes beyond just his own mind? How much is the Mark actually affecting him? (effecting? I have no idea which one…). Or is it just "dramatic" story telling? Or (as was suggested by bookdal on twitter) - did Dean absorb Cain when he killed him and is somehow being convinced that he doesn't need saving…??? Would make more sense of Dean's sudden change of mind maybe…?).

And something else that stuck me in this episode. It's highly contentious and yet I am going to post about it ('cause I trust you all…;D). I don't wear shipping goggles when I watch an episode. I look for all the awesome "more than brother" bits sometimes but I certainly don't look for destiel in episodes. I do, though, often see moments that will be interpreted for the destiel audience. I have no idea why (it drives me a little nuts because I can't EVER watch a scene between Dean and Cas and not think about it…). Aaanyway. Dean's "experience something for the first time" made me do a double take (I literally re-wound that moment). After him making up the lie about all the women he'd had at once (actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them. It's an admirable quality), he then talks about being afraid of dying and wanting to experience something for the first time. I won't deny it, it made me think that maybe they are actually playing the long "Dean is bi-sexual" line. I've NEVER thought that it was a direction they'd take, but I confess it was massively heavy subtext in that direction.

I've since had chats about it and see that it's more about him wanting so many other things he's never had ("true" love, a non hunting life, self love etc), but I will not blame D/C fans for jumping on that one. I know show will never go there, but dammit if they ain't subtexting out of the water. AND with the recent Jensen and Misha sunset pic? As much as I hate the term "queerbaiting", if they're teasing this deliberately I will be bloody pissed at them. Mainly because it just isn't fair. Not to fans to are hanging out for this. Leaving interpretations "open" is well and good but would it actually hurt to be clear about some dialogue?! Or was it clear and I missed it?

So yeah. It was a strange episode. I really didn't enjoy it, but it generated some interesting thoughts. I probably need to watch it again and actually watch the bits I skipped.../o\
Comments 
26th-Mar-2015 02:59 pm (UTC)
And we saw this happen in this episode. It was the best thing about the episode for me. Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.

YES clearly Sam is spending a lot of effort researching cures on Dean's behalf, I'm wondering how far he'll go with that.

27th-Mar-2015 01:42 pm (UTC)
I'm wondering how far he'll go with that.

I'm guessing pretty far!
26th-Mar-2015 03:01 pm (UTC)
I felt the same minus the Dean is bi subtext. I was too distracted by Dean giving a shit about God's faith in human.
Yay for smart Sam!
27th-Mar-2015 01:43 pm (UTC)
I was too distracted by Dean giving a shit about God's faith in human.

Ha, yes, there was that. Considering what they've been through I'm not surprised by his response.
26th-Mar-2015 03:07 pm (UTC)
slightly better than last week only due to Sam doing something, rowenda, i ff her, the dean confession was confusing, my grade's a C- for Sam doing saving the day and not following Dean's order
27th-Mar-2015 01:45 pm (UTC)
Hmmm, I'm thinking it's my least fave this season. Least enjoyable anyway. At least last week had heaps more bros and interesting MoTW. :)
26th-Mar-2015 03:16 pm (UTC)
yeah this episode was boring, i was trying not to fall asleep :(

what irritates me the most is i've started watching "the walking dead" (after not watching despite everyone telling me what a great series it is) and i was more interested in watching the next episode of walking dead and i almost forgot that supernatural was on. ugh.

yes, yay, for Sam figuring it out and burning the right thing to get rid of the ghost. yay for Dean confessing.

and so Rowena knows that the Men of Letters has her magic and she knows the Winchesters are Men of Letters.

that's all I got out of it. but yeah pretty boring overall.
27th-Mar-2015 01:47 pm (UTC)
*nods*

Looks like Rowena will be going after the boys and maybe Crowley may even save them (?). I can't see him siding with his mom over them, but we'll see...
26th-Mar-2015 03:23 pm (UTC)
It had its weaknesses, undoubtedly, and moments that made it cringe, but overall I enjoyed it a lot more than last week's episode.

I loved all the brother moments, and all the Sam, and the confession scene. Though even my mind immediately went to Cas at that point...

actually, this was a curious choice for Dean. He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them. It's an admirable quality
My thoughts exactly. He should have confessed that he's developed the inappropriate habit of ogling teenagers and nuns...
But it's been suggested before on the show that Dean actually feels bad about the way he treats women, even if he shouldn't. What comes to mind is the "ditching chicks" comment in 4x02, not sure if there's any similar quotes in other eps too. So maybe even if the scenario was fictional, it didn't feel that far from the truth to Dean?
26th-Mar-2015 10:59 pm (UTC)
Dean did roll his eyes at one point though to show that he was laying it on really thick with that story. He may feel bad for not having a "relationship" with a girl, but that has nothing to do with how he actually treats women. So, yeah, I don't know how much if felt real to him.
26th-Mar-2015 03:28 pm (UTC)
Since I don't watch with emotions anymore I surprised myself starting to come alive when "The Pretty Lamp" turned into smart!Sam,saving the day. A character coming back to life. Yay! Man, I hope they don't turn that light off again in the next ep..
And please can get someone get rid of the king of hell (and his mother) and let Lucifer out of the cage? Please? Pretty please?
27th-Mar-2015 02:00 pm (UTC)
Smart!lamp! \o/ Nice when he's switched on!

I have to confess I am TOTALLY over Crowley's story line. I've never been a huge fan, but lately it's just yawn worthy. I just don't care about him (he's a murderer and torturer - why would I?), so I pretty much switch off during his scenes - unless it involved one of the boys.

More Luci would be awesome!
26th-Mar-2015 03:30 pm (UTC)
I have many thoughts but I will say I agree with a lot of your review! I'll expound after working out... :)

Edited at 2015-03-26 03:31 pm (UTC)
26th-Mar-2015 10:42 pm (UTC)
I've discovered I have quite a lot of thoughts after that one. I didn't put them all here, but more that might come out in discussion. There was probably some parallels in the story lines, but I didn't try very hard to work them out. I look forward to your thoughts. :)
26th-Mar-2015 03:53 pm (UTC)
i enjoyed tDean's discussions with the nun and the priest about mission and belief. When Dean answered the priest's question about "Do you believe in God?" I immediately thought of Chuck. Cuz he's back and maybe he'll step in at the last minute and actually prove Dean wrong, eh? Yeah!
26th-Mar-2015 11:00 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that occurred to me as well that it might be a bit of foreshadowing or at least leaving that possibility open.
26th-Mar-2015 03:57 pm (UTC) - Meh
I had a meeting last night and rushed home to watch Show, and was disappointed as well. While Dean's dialogue in the confessional was both funny and heart-wrenching and Sam brilliantly saved the day, I felt the rest was slow and plodding. I had to rewatch Dean's confession to see what all the fuss was about. I don't ship D/C that much so it went right by me, I guess, until the rewatch.

Maybe the writers are trying to hard to weave Rowena into the story, but the dialogue between her and Crowley seemed forced. I love both actors; it just seemed that they didn't have much to work with last night. Maybe next week, they'll flesh out the story a bit more, but I thought the witch/hamster thing was a bit cheesy.

Nuns in makeup? Good question. The church was gorgeous, though. (I work in one that's Gothic-style, too. Just love 'em.) And Jerry Wanek's sets are always perfect. He's brilliant. :)

All in all, a strange episode that had a couple small reveals........I can't help but wonder what's next.
26th-Mar-2015 05:07 pm (UTC) - Re: Meh
Yeah, that church. Same church from S2.E13, Houses of the Holy, and "Ben's church" from the Pollo Loco ep, S1.E16 of Dark Angel. It's been used in other series, too. It's a pretty popular Van location, sort of like Riverside hospital.
26th-Mar-2015 03:58 pm (UTC)
Re: Dean's confession - I thought all his stuff about women was lying for the sake of the eavesdropping ghost, not least because there was such a marked change in his voice and face and overall demeanour when he started talking about dying. That part all rang true, whereas the previous bit, not so much.

I did totally miss any Destiel subtext in his confession though, that didn't occur to me for even a second. Whoosh! Over my head if it was there.

I don't think Dean was hitting on the nun - I think he was flirting a bit but then by the end of their conversation he was taking her seriously and clearly saw her as a person. He then covered that with a stupid Dean-like remark to Sam about her being hot, because he has to play the part he thinks Sam expects. The fact that both of them have moved beyond that now is something Dean doesn't seem to grasp.

Yay for clever, competent Sam! And I didn't think he was as missing in this one as he has been in some episodes this season - I think it might have felt Sam-light because of all the time wasted on the peripheral characters. It would have been better to get some of the ghost's backstory via Sam instead of the flashbacks but clearly they wanted to waste some budget on Renaissance clothing so...

I wasn't totally bored but you can guarantee I will be fast forwarding all the Crowley Rowena bits next time I watch (if I watch again) and the overlong nun conversations/flashback scenes. Even though I did like non-ghost nun and was glad she survived.

It seems all the Crowley Rowena stuff was there simply so they could sicc Rowena on the boys and make the bunker a target. It was a rather longwinded way of setting that up and feels like an after thought tagged on to try and justify the decision to make Mark Sheppard a series regular.

Oooh so cynical, AMB!
26th-Mar-2015 10:52 pm (UTC)
I thought all his stuff about women was lying for the sake of the eavesdropping ghost,

Oh yes! Absolutely! It was a total lie (I know some thought he was telling the truth). He was making it up to catch the ghost. It was interesting that he chose to make his fake confession about how he treats women. Maybe there is some real guilt there or maybe it's the one thing he doesn't actually feel guilty about. It was also there to contrast he real confession. At first I wondered what on earth was going on - then it became clear.

that didn't occur to me for even a second. Whoosh! Over my head if it was there.

I wish that was for me too. I have no idea what it seemed so loud. I'm thinking now it was more about all the people in his life - finally opening up and letting them into his thoughts (though it didn't happen at the end, so may be not).

I think he was flirting a bit but then by the end of their conversation he was taking her seriously

Yeah, more flirting than hitting on probably. I see how the conversation became more serious (though I was constantly distracted by all the make up those nuns were wearing. I couldn't help thinking they were not real and just didn't trust them. Either of them).

It was a rather longwinded way of setting that up and feels like an after thought tagged on to try and justify the decision to make Mark Sheppard a series regular.

Yeah. Crowley seems just so ineffectual at the moment. When Rowena mentioned how evil he was I was shaking my head. He's the least evil baddie on the show. I have no idea what their plans are for him. Probably saving them from his mom.

Hee, and cynical has become my middle name with the show atm. Trying so hard not to - but it ain't easy.


26th-Mar-2015 04:29 pm (UTC)
Yeah, overall I felt about this episode the same way you did. I was pretty bored and felt bad that it seemed so Winchester-lite, and even more so, Sam-lite. *sigh* I wish they wouldn't devote the bulk of the episodes to the side characters so much. I actually couldn't believe the amount of time that was taken up by those flashbacks to 1500s Florence, Italy. And the Crowley/Rowena stuff was pretty boring. The only thing that perked me up a little was the actress who played the witch from the coven - I'd known her from some other things, so it was a bit cool to see her again

Honestly, I didn't really think of the "Dean is bi" thing, but when I heard Dean say that stuff to the priest, one of my first thoughts was "oh geez, the Destiel crowd is gonna take this and run with it." Maybe it's more of a reflection on my bad experiences with quite a few of them (I had one my flist who drove me nuts towards the end till I had to defriend her). But thinking on it more, it does seem like you said to be more about him wanting so many other things he's never had.

I did enjoy the very precious little we got of Sam. And...

Sam didn't listen to Dean when he gave him an order. He used his better judgement and saved the day. He saved the damn day! \o/ I'd like to think it's foreshadowing the future, but I can't hold out for that.

Yes, I loved this!! I would love to think this too, but I can't be too optimistic given these writers. :/
27th-Mar-2015 03:18 pm (UTC)
Sam-lite is the flavour of the season, sadly. Not one Sam episode this season (or since…um…no idea the last time we had a decent Sam focussed episode). Dean consistently gets chucks of self reflecting moments, but it's never balanced out with Sam ones.

one of my first thoughts was "oh geez, the Destiel crowd is gonna take this and run with it."

That was mine also, only I don't blame them. It was pretty blatant I thought. But I also accept it wasn't for those who are not aware that even exists.

Yay Sam following his instincts and smarts. Nice to see him not collide with a wall and save the day. :)
26th-Mar-2015 04:35 pm (UTC)
I so agree with your review, I found the episode very dull - except when Dean and Sam were on screen, but let's face it, they could read the phone book and I'd be riveted to the screen!

The back story for the ghost was pretty to look at but too drawn out and the only good bit about Rowena was when she turned her nemesis into a hamster, complete with little red necklace!

I liked Dean's confession (even with the subtext!) and Sam saving the day by ignoring Dean and doing what he does best - research, yay go Sammy! The last scene was good too and gave me real S3 feels. I only hope this time Sam can save Dean.

"It was a strange episode. I really didn't enjoy it, but it generated some interesting thoughts." hear hear!

27th-Mar-2015 03:20 pm (UTC)
Ha! they could read the phone book! (and I'd say it would be a thousand times more interesting than that episode…;D). Love stories and personal dramas (that are not Sam and Dean's) just don't interest me that much - especially when it's characters I really don't care about.

26th-Mar-2015 05:19 pm (UTC)
Man, I'm not even ashamed to admit I'm dvring to watch after the non-SPN watching DH goes to bed. And I was folding laundry while I watched delayed last night--that was the only reason I wasn't grabbing for the remote to FF the Crowley-Rowena scenes. It was good to see Dr. Fraiser from Stargate: SG1 (we've had Sam Carter--Amanda Tapping--maybe we'll get Michael Shanks or some of the other SG:1 cast). And Ruthie wore the hell out of that red dress and wig. But otherwise it was just so much Miss Othmar (Peanuts, Linus' teacher, "Wah,wah wah wah.") to suffer through till Sam and Dean were back onscreen.

I'm kind of wanting to drop back to two episodes a month, maybe, take two weeks to film an ep so the guys can have time off, but have each one be full-on Sam and Dean. You think that would work?
26th-Mar-2015 06:59 pm (UTC)
We had Michael Shanks in 99 Problems. We also have had Corin Nemec (Jonas Quinn), Robert Picardo, and Ben Browder. We also had Kavan Smith, it you're throwing SGA into the mix. I keep looking for past Stargate actors on the show and we get quite a few.
26th-Mar-2015 08:15 pm (UTC)
sorry, but nuns waking up and putting make up on? Do they?

Some do! Some wake up and get dressed and go on The Voice, for that matter.

He likes his one night stands, but he's honest about them. He doesn't "play" women. He never pretends he's anything other than he really is for them.

I wouldn't go quite that far. I think he exploits emotional vulnerability in women (wasn't there some exchange a while back about Valentine's Day being "grifter Christmas" for him?) which is another way of "playing" people.

he can read ancient Italian it seems

Well, Sam reads Latin fairly regularly (which I guess is just more-ancient Italian), so it's not too weird that he could get the gist of the diary.
26th-Mar-2015 09:55 pm (UTC)
It was "drifter" Christmas, which is quite different from grifter.
26th-Mar-2015 09:49 pm (UTC)
I bet Dean flip-flops because the writers don't talk to each other.
27th-Mar-2015 02:27 pm (UTC)
That too. I'd like to think not (I rather love the idea that Cain might be screwing with Dean's mind somehow…), but inconsistent writing could also be the case.
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