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11.10 reaction (warning for squee harshing content)  
22nd-Jan-2016 11:31 pm
Becc_j Art
I haven't posted anything about 11.10 yet because a) I'm away from my computer (on holidays) and typing on my iPad which isn't ideal and b) I really don't know how to say what I want to say about it (though I've tried).

(warning - negativity under the cut. Please do not let me harsh your squee. Move on by (like I know I really should).



I did a lot of soul searching last night after watching the episode. I had a moment of clarity that made me see how Carver is essentially just taking the piss. The sheer laziness in the storytelling made me want to weep (and in fact I did). I was seriously contemplating taking my bat and ball and going home. And I was ready to do it but an addiction like this is not so easy to kick it seems (the next day I was back checking all my fandom places and wanting to talk about it /O\) It's purely personal - it's about the way I watch and enjoy this show. I know many loved it and I think that's awesome. :)

I can't write it all out here but I will just say this; Season 4 and 5 were built around Sam and Dean evolving to a point where they had to say yes/no to lucifer/Michael. It explored motive, weakness, loyalty, trust and strength. And then in one episode. ONE EPISODE. Cas said yes to lucifer. No build up, no exploration, no in-depth motive' it was just "ooh, I know what we can do with Cas now! Let's make him Lucifer!" He has one tiny scene that makes me feel less heroic than Sam and Dean and *wham* he's lucifer. They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Then there was the confirmation that Sam didn't look for Dean in S8 because they had apparently made a promise not to. If you are going to do that to a character give us that scene. In S5 there was a scene where Sam told Dean to go and live his life after his death. Even then, we found out in S6 that Dean still tried all he could to find Sam. So in s8 we have Sam not even trying to figure out where dean went and abandoning Kevin because of an off-screen "promise". I'm sorry, but that's carver's canon and I just cannot accept it (and he keeps pushing that message home - like if he says it enough it will make it true).

Ok, there were some nice bits in that ep, but even the funny voice message and bro touching couldn't shake me out of the "what the fuck was that?!" after it all sunk in.

(And don't get me started on the fandom war it's created about who played the better Lucifer. The cynic in me thinks it a deliberate ploy to stir up fandom on-line chatter. The realist in me says they simply have no idea what they are doing and it's just a "fun" place to take the storyline).

I'm glad Rowena got a chance to tell us why she's the way she is before they killed her. It was one of her best scenes.

There's more but I am feeling just so weary. I long for the simple MOTW eps where they stop trying to do something with an absurd myth arc that is not thought through.

(And why didn't Lucifer just kill Sam and Dean? How does the devil have a fist fight? What happened to a click of the fingers and a body explodes. Agh...I have to stop before I explode).

I used too many brackets. Oh well.
Comments 
22nd-Jan-2016 01:04 pm (UTC)
((big hugs))

...and *wham* he's lucifer. They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Perhaps Netflix was what prepared him to become a willing vessel... *ducks*

Sarcastic aside, I understand your reaction. The clown show tendencies (for lack of better word) are irritating me, too.
I agree with Rowena having one of her best scenes telling why she hates Crowly. The fist fight in the cage was off putting to me. Supernatural punching.. :P
Having said all that, I still generally enjoyed watching the ep. Watching these characters run across the screen sometimes seems sufficent to make me feel content.

I do hope the next ep will make you feel better again. :-*

xx
22nd-Jan-2016 01:12 pm (UTC)
Ha ha you nailed it - too much Netflix addled Castiel's brain!
22nd-Jan-2016 01:11 pm (UTC)
I understand completely. i think I've set aside Seasons 1-5 as being something else now, and I'm just going with the flow for this season a bit more. It doesn't stop me thinking about the naffness after the initial fun of an episode dies, but it stops me hoping the Carver who gave us Mystery Spot wasn't an aberration.

I haven't been on tumblr to read the fanwank debating - I can't be arsed. Basically I can't see how Misha can possibly make it convincing because he isn't Mark Pellegrino, and Mark has made that role so perfectly his. I love Misha, he's a great person but I don't think he's that great an actor. There's no point in saying that anywhere outside of LJ because Twitter and Tumblr abounds with Misha's acolytes that hear no reason.
23rd-Jan-2016 04:45 am (UTC)
The "Best Lucifer" fandom war, at least on Twitter (I don't do Tumblr) is between Misha and Jared fans. Mark P has barely gotten a mention (at least on my timeline).

I think Misha played way OTT, far too hammy and obvious. What I loved (and will always love) about Jared's version is how subtle he was. He didn't try to impersonate Mark and yet you could tell instantly that he wasn't Sam any more.
22nd-Jan-2016 02:51 pm (UTC)
I admit I am not a fan of Carver,s Supernatural. The Lucifer /Castiel sl just smacks of needing to give the character some relevance , it is just a pity they had to take it from Sam,s mytharc and not actually create a original sl for him.
23rd-Jan-2016 09:34 am (UTC)
Yeah. It feels like they were desperate to find something for Cas. I'm not sure if it's taking away Sam's arc though (what happened in the past will never be taken from him) it's just curious that they have mirrored Sam's and Cas's experiences. Sam and Cas have been mirrored throughout the series (both responsible for releasing Lucifer, both seeking redemption, both having the effects of Sam's broken wall, etc) If I thought there was any plan I'd say it could be a way of exploring that. But I don't. ;/. At least Sam and Dean are now working side my side again (I hope).
22nd-Jan-2016 03:56 pm (UTC)
I was thinking last night that I have enjoyed the MoTW episodes this season and that I should just skip the mytharc ones. This comment is a pretty irritated snarky response to the episode so if you don't want to read it, that's cool.

My reaction to Rowena's death was ok, now she'll be a demon. Not, oh dear, she's dead, we've seen the last of her. Why didn't Lucifer smite Crowley immediately?

I have no idea why Cas said yes even after watching the episode. It just feels like an extension of the lack of an idea of what to do with Cas so we'll make him bad and Dean and Sam can worry about him and have to save him because that will make some fans really happy. It was like Cas made the most futile of acts to get the attention of an unrequited teenage crush (Sam, Dean, the other angels, God). The only way this works for me is if he's seen some sort of fatal Lucifer flaw because he took on Sam's stuff after he broke the wall and he can get that info to the Winchesters. Because, of course Sam and Dean are going to destroy Cas in the process of killing Lucifer. Rolls eyes forever. Maybe he thinks he's strong enough to do what Sam did and control Lucifer. How is he even a strong enough vessel to hold Lucifer? Maybe Casifer will come across Metatron who will call him asstiel and then Lucifer can smite him for something useful to come out of this chuckforsaken plot line. Maybe the warning about watching people you love die was a warning to fans in terms of Cas.

Lucifer kept berating Sam for being weak (he's not) yada yada and I just wanted to shout at him, whose fault is that, you stupid ass? Gee 200 years of torture is such a positive mental health experience. They seriously dumbed down Lucifer as well as Cas. What even were those memories. Because teenage Sam jumping at an offered makeout session shows so much more boldness than hmmm let's say Stanford maybe? As far as I can see it, the only credible move Lucifer made was to threaten Dean's life and even that was pretty lame. Possessed murderous clown costumes were scarier.

I'm bummed out because I haven't felt this snarky post-episode in a while. I hate that I have to feel slightly detached and not as invested in the show to keep the irritation down enough to enjoy watching. It's doubly irritating when even that doesn't work.



26th-Jan-2016 05:18 am (UTC)
This comment is a pretty irritated snarky response to the episode so if you don't want to read it, that's cool.

Hee, well, my whole post was irritated snark so it's totally cool!

My reaction to Rowena's death was ok, now she'll be a demon.

Exactly. I wasn't expecting it, but when it happened I was like - ok, but she'll be back so there's that. And actually, if she does come back as a demon that might be ok (though, I still remember they said it takes centuries for demons to be made - but I suspect they'll find a way around that).

I have no idea why Cas said yes even after watching the episode.

Yeah, this is the biggest issue I had with the episode. It just makes no sense - it doesn't even feel heroic - rather, a thoughtless act to make himself feel needed. I dunno. Maybe he'll have (another) redemption arc as they are really struggling to know what to do with him. They have been hampered by their own success of Cas. I wonder now how much canon they'll have to break now that back he's on earth. He's going to be off doing stuff (the eps where Misha isn't used) and then coming back into the storyline when he's used again. Argh. *headspin* Both Amara AND lucifer to have to contend with.

Gee 200 years of torture is such a positive mental health experience.

Haha! Lu didn't consider the damage he's already done to poor Sam. I'm not entirely sure what his aim was in making Sam feel less of a hero (compared he when he actually kissed a girl O_o), but I'm not complaining because at least we got some Sam POV and got to see him being kickass in his response to Lucifer.

I'm bummed out because I haven't felt this snarky post-episode in a while.

Me too! I think I've made only one other one this season - so that's pretty good going. :)



22nd-Jan-2016 04:08 pm (UTC)
Yep.
23rd-Jan-2016 09:48 am (UTC)
Yeah. :/.
22nd-Jan-2016 04:23 pm (UTC)
I, too, had mixed feelings about it but that was partly due to the boring angel stuff, Dean just spinning his wheels, and the total lameness of smiting sickness. How ridiculous. Billie seems rather awesome. How about more of her rather than boring one-off angels???

I do wish there had been a scene where Dean and Sam promise not to look for each other even if it doesn't really jive with my own head canon that Sam thought Dean was dead and wasn't going to look for him/bring him back from the dead. But if that's what they're going with, I wanna see it, please and thank you.

As for all the painful things Lucifer said to Sam, I saw that as typical Lucifer manipulations; twisting Sam's own guilt and self-doubt, something that Sam has always struggled with, to suit his own needs. And it would have been perfect if not for Sam's line about them promising each other to not look for one another which ruins the whole thing, really.

However, the scenes with Sam and Lucifer were the best. These two play off each other so well.

I am going to give it some time but my first impression of Misha's Lucifer was not positive. I agree that we had no buildup for that and a one off scene with a throwaway angel we have never met was not enough. I agree it's just a way to give the character something to do. But I can admit that I can't see where it is going so that in and of itself sparks some interest. How does that work? An archangel possessing an angel possessing what's left of Jimmy? Will he deteriorate? In a reverse twist of season seven, will Sam feel the need to take on Lucifer to save Castiel? Mark and Jared's Lucifer could be so cunning, even subtly chilling. Misha seems to have taken the over the top Lucifer to heart so I found the menace, even when he killed Rowena, totally lacking. It made me realize, yet again, how Jared, as an actor, doesn't often get the credit he deserves. But the Cassifer scenes were brief so I will hold judgment until I see more.

Even though I'm kinda glad to see Rowena gone, that bit of character development before Lucifer did what we knew he would do was a bit inspired I think so I can give kudos for that.

Crowleys onesie with his Funko Sam would make an excellent cosplay.

And my friend likened the whole thing to A Christmas Carol where Lucifer is the Ghost of Everything which just might make me enjoy the ep more on a rewatch.

I haven't talked about the show that much but, overall, I have really enjoyed this season thus far and I hope it's not all downhill from here. It would all probably work if these writers were able to create a cohesive mytharc. They seem to be weak in this area, spinning off characters and ideas in too many dead end directions.

So, yeah. As you can see, very obviously mixed feelings but it does have me thinking about it, which is a plus I suppose

Edited at 2016-01-22 06:25 pm (UTC)
26th-Jan-2016 05:44 am (UTC)
Dean was just spinning his wheels wasn't he?

I am confused about the "smiting sickness" - is that when Amara was "smiter" by…heaven? I have to go back and watch that bit.

And I agree that the Sam and Lucifer scenes were the strongest. They do have a good on screen rapport. Also, I thought the dialogue was the strongest (though, I'm probably biased on that count…).

I am going to give it some time but my first impression of Misha's Lucifer was not positive.

Mine too. I could see what he was trying to do, but it came across initially as ham acting and it didn't do Misha any favours. Though, there were a couple of moments that I thought he was very convincing as Mark's Lucifer - so I figure that's what he was doing. If he can calm down the "faces", it might work much better for him. We'll see what happens. I am absolutely stuck with any ideas as to what they ware going to do with him. I want to see some great reasons why he doesn't just snap Sam and Dean (and Crowley's) necks when he next sees them. he won't - I just hope we know why.

Crowley's onesie was great!

I have really enjoyed this season thus far

Me too. I know this reaction makes it seem like I haven't, but it's been my fave over the last few years so far. Fingers crossed they've got a good plan going into the finale. :)
22nd-Jan-2016 04:52 pm (UTC)
I can't believe they needed to make it canon that Sam didn't look for Dean after S7. I'm still reeling. What can possibly be the point of that? And then we still have Lucifer going on about how they do anything to save the other one or bring the other one back? Does this feel like a total contradiction to anyone else? And we can't even explain it away with fan fiction because the show had to go and make it CANON.

Sorry, did something else happen in this episode? I forget...
22nd-Jan-2016 07:45 pm (UTC)
That's a great point. It's like they want to have it both ways, and they just can't.
22nd-Jan-2016 05:25 pm (UTC)
{{{{{hugs you}}}}}

I long for the simple MOTW eps where they stop trying to do something with an absurd myth arc that is not thought through.

On this we agree wholeheartedly. All my favorite eps in the last...wow, 8 years...have been MOTW. Basically nothing about the angels has ever worked for me particularly well, especially not since they had their first fistfight in S4. And nothing about demons, either, since they became laughable (I'd say around the time burning Crowley's bones came into the picture). And yet, I seem to have reached a zen place where my expectations are so low, I enjoy what I enjoy and handwave the rest. I tried walking away, and it didn't work, so I'm happy to have found a way to work around it.

{{{{more hugs!}}}}
22nd-Jan-2016 05:39 pm (UTC)
Basically nothing about the angels has ever worked for me particularly well, especially not since they had their first fistfight in S4. And nothing about demons, either, since they became laughable (I'd say around the time burning Crowley's bones came into the picture). And yet, I seem to have reached a zen place where my expectations are so low, I enjoy what I enjoy and handwave the rest. I tried walking away, and it didn't work, so I'm happy to have found a way to work around it.

(nods furiously)

I knew I liked you for a reason. This, all of this.

Mostly what the writers and directors of storylines and arcs in recent years have done is teach me to ignore canon when it's patently ridiculous, or impossible to believe or reconcile with previous canon.
22nd-Jan-2016 05:32 pm (UTC)
I'm finally out so I didn't watch, but sending you love and understanding anyway (snark-free)
23rd-Jan-2016 09:53 am (UTC)
Congratulations and thanks. ❤️ Kicking this addiction is harder than giving up smoking and sugar. I kicked those, but can't kick this one it seems. :/
22nd-Jan-2016 07:20 pm (UTC)
The sheer laziness in the storytelling made me want to weep...Season 4 and 5 were built around Sam and Dean evolving to a point where they had to say yes/no to lucifer/Michael. It explored motive, weakness, loyalty, trust and strength. And then in one episode. ONE EPISODE. Cas said yes to lucifer...They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

Yeah, that's been my problem with the show since its early days, and you put your finger on the problem perfectly. I agree that it seems designed to give MC something fun to do while also keeping their budget down. However, given their long track record you can expect that this storyline will end pretty quickly because they're all about throwing ideas out there (sometimes great ideas) with no thought about follow-through and then just leaving most of the possibilities unexplored.
26th-Jan-2016 05:24 am (UTC)
because they're all about throwing ideas out there (sometimes great ideas) with no thought about follow-through and then just leaving most of the possibilities unexplored.

This exactly. I don't know why I constantly expect more. I'm always telling myself not to expect more and then I get hopeful and then disappointed. Thats why MoTW work better for me these days. :)
22nd-Jan-2016 07:36 pm (UTC)
The thing about the (non)agreement that Sam and Dean not look for one another is that it doesn't explain why Sam didn't hunt down the remaining leviathan or why he abandoned Kevin to Crowley's tender care. Carver is still butthurt about fans hating that storyline and, you're totally right, it's like he thinks if it gets repeated often enough we'll buy it. We won't.

I agree completely about the Lucifer storyline. What makes me sick is that springing Lucifer erases all everything Sam and Dean fought and sacrificed for in season five and ultimately in "Swan Song" and all the fallout after -- Dean's year alone, Sam being soulless, hallucife, all of it. It makes me want to punch Carver in the face tbh. It's like he's determined to deconstruct all the Kripke and Gamble seasons.
22nd-Jan-2016 09:02 pm (UTC)
What makes me sick is that springing Lucifer erases all everything Sam and Dean fought and sacrificed for in season five and ultimately in "Swan Song" and all the fallout after

This! Exactly! This storyline is taking the meaning out of all the sacrifice!
22nd-Jan-2016 07:44 pm (UTC)
Hey, bb. We'll always have the early seasons. :) I don't know why Carver seems so bound and determined to destroy what was once a magnificent construct (and after an amazing beginning to S11, too), but yeah, he sure doesn't seem to like SPN very much.

"ooh, I know what we can do with Cas now! Let's make him Lucifer!"

*sigh* Pretty much this. The character has become useless and irrelevant, yet the writers keep trying to make him relevant to the plot -- that's all this is.

IDK. With the exception of the sucking pit of suckitude that was Misha's version of Lucifer, I generally liked the episode. The voicemail, the reveal of Rowena's past, Dean leaping to Sam's rescue in the cage, "Have you met me?" . . . SPN is not what it used to be for sure, but it still has its moments. I won't be quitting the show any time soon. :)

I'm hoping that 11.10 was an aberration. May next week's episode be much better.
25th-Jan-2016 11:45 pm (UTC)
I like your list of good things! (Which you already know.) I know I won't quit it, so we might as well roll around in the fun stuff, yeah? :)
22nd-Jan-2016 08:28 pm (UTC)
All of this, but especially this:

They had a whole first half of the season to put Cas in a place were this made sense - instead they had him watching Netflix.

You know, they could have sold this so well. They could have had Cas getting more and more freaked out about the Darkness over several episodes, but it's like they didn't even think about it until they were plotting 11.10.
22nd-Jan-2016 09:11 pm (UTC)
It's been quite clear to me for a while that they plan the season in two halves, and they don't even think about the second half until the show's gone to air and they get the fan reaction to the early episodes. Singer's even admitted as much.

Edited at 2016-01-22 09:12 pm (UTC)
22nd-Jan-2016 09:27 pm (UTC)
For me, seasons 1 to 5 are canon. They tell a complete story, and it's a tragedy. That's Supernatural for me.

Everything since I regard as the equivalent of professional fan-fiction, of variable quality. I've trained myself to look at it this way otherwise it would just make me too angry to watch.
26th-Jan-2016 05:45 am (UTC)
Hee, I'm trying different approaches. It works ok most of the time - just not when I get toooooo upset with it . Like this episode.
22nd-Jan-2016 10:20 pm (UTC)
Here to squee your harsh :)

So Carver is unable to have Sam say the actual words 'I thought Dean was dead and we agreed what's dead should stay dead.' But he didn't contradict that either, so we can put it in as canon in our own heads. 'We agreed not to look for each other' is simply missing the first half of the statement, 'I thought you were dead.' In the cabin when Sam finds Dean returned from Purgatory, Sam says 'we agreed not to look for each other' and Dean didn't deny that, just said he didn't mean it. But that doesn't mean Sam couldn't have meant it sincerely.

Lucifer's psychology of trying to convince Sam that saying yes would be a return to his brave self was scary--I could see how Lucifer was playing Sam but I didn't know if Sam was seeing it! And the twisted way Lucifer was presenting Sam's character changes since Swan Song made sense in that Sam has lost some of his confidence in his own decisions.

As far as Casifer...from a purely practical sense, there's no way Mark Pellegrino could continue on SPN because of his own upcoming series, so moving Lucifer into Castiel is one way to keep the character going. And, while I don't know if this is in the cards, it could be fulfilling to watch Sam and Dean unite to save Cas, instead of one of them either fighting with or saving the other, giving show a little different dynamic.

I wondered why Lucifer resorted to a fistfight instead of using his torture skills, but perhaps he does not have access to those powers in the temporary cage Rowena made? If he pulled out Sam's intestines Sam would actually die and then where would Luci be?

I do wish we could have lingered just a moment longer to show what Sam would have said to Lucifer's threat to kill Dean unless Sam capitulated. I really wonder which way Sam was leaning, especially after Lucifer's emotional manipulation of earlier.

As for why did Cas say yes? I agree his motivation was given short shrift, and it seems pretty clear Carver has never been very sure what to do with the character. Misha's not going anywhere, though, because Jared and Jensen won't want to go back to being the only 2 leads and working all the time.

We can speculate that ever since Rowena put Cas under the attack-dog spell he has been doubting himself, so sacrifing himself to save Sam/Dean/humanity would be a way to redeem himself. We are also left to infer that Cas' interaction with Amara scared him so badly that he has no faith in the boys to handle her. Or could he have picked up on her link with Dean? Is he determined to end the Darkness so that Dean isn't consumed? One has to wonder, though, how he intends to reign Lucifer in after he takes care of the Darkness. But then, thinking through the consequences has never been Cas' strong point...

I will say that while watching my first reaction to Casifer was OMG, how clever...but after a couple days' thought I see that Casifer is actually a rehas of LeviCas. So not really a new idea after all...but it does up the ante, the boys have to defeat both Amara and Lucifer. Will those two end up like Abaddon and Crowley? I always felt so much more could have been done with Abaddon and Dean--like they are doing with Amara and Dean now.

Rowena's last scene with Crowley actually was the first time I felt anything besides annoyance with her. And as soon as Casifer said she was going to get her reward, I knew she was toast.

Perhaps the overall lesson of SPN is that hubris always gets its comeuppance?

I know there have been some reactions disliking Misha's Lucifer, but honestly, when he initially revealed himself his face and body language were so different that for a moment I wasn't sure it was Misha! And as far as being over-the-top, I've always found Pellegrino's Lucifer to be over-the-top as well, especially in these 2 episodes.

Anyway, I hope I've given you a little hope to go on. IMO this is the most engaging season as a whole in a while. Not perfect, but then it's never going to be because it's a product of a group mind. And Carver's no Kripke. But Kripke wasn't always perfect either...


Edited at 2016-01-22 10:23 pm (UTC)
25th-Jan-2016 11:47 pm (UTC)
I like your spin on it, B!
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