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just enough to make us dangerous
Something I'm curious about…(S11) 
20th-Feb-2016 10:38 am
Discussion / no weapons discharge
I was going to tweet this, but then remembered twitter is awful for conversations. Or even just making a potentially controversial statement.

So I'll put it in my fave place to post stuff. :)



I'm seeing a lot comments around the place that having Lucifer out of the cage disregards (whitewashes, demeans, trivialises etc) Sam's story line in S5. That the current storyline means that everything Sam did back then was for nothing.

I'm not clear why this is the sentiment? Nothing changes about what happened in the past. That will always be part of his storyline - and he'll always be the character that did that.

Lucifer being out now is merely a current storyline for the show. I totally accept that people are not liking it (for many various reasons), but what's happening now seems to be in conjunction to what happened back then - not totally aside from it (?).

I'm not asking whether it's a "good" storyline (I know there will be a heap of different reactions to that kind of question *g*) but simply asking why Sam's past storyline has diminished because of the current one?


(Note: This shouldn't need to be stated - because I think you guys know me well enough by now - but I'm not asking this to pick a fight. I am genuinely curious. Perhaps I am missing something that many others are seeing?).
Comments 
20th-Feb-2016 03:21 am (UTC)
To me, it diminishes what Sam did because it was, at the time, something only Sam had done. Maybe only Sam could do. And now it's, oh yeah, ANOTHER character is able to subdue Lucifer. No big whoop.
20th-Feb-2016 03:56 am (UTC)
This. As much as I like the Sassy implications of Cas overcoming Lucifer to save Sam, I found that episode pretty upsetting. And I don't even love Swan Song that much.
20th-Feb-2016 03:31 am (UTC)
Like you, I don't think what is going on this season negates what Sam did in season five. I'm going to have to see where they take this story before I know what I think about it.

I am a little concerned that they seem to be hitting some of the same beats with Cas as they did with Sam. Sam releases Lucifer trying to stop the Apocalypse. Cas releases Lucifer trying to stop the Darkness. Sam overcomes Lucifer because of the love of his brother. Cas overcomes Lucifer because of the love of his friend.

I also can understand some people's concern. By having Cas do this Sam's sacrifice and torture, although made in an attempt to save the world didn't, in fact, save the world because Lucifer got out again. So everything Sam went through was well not for nothing, but not for as much as it seemed to be at the time.

I'm not going to be happy if Cas ends up jumping into the Cage to save the world from Lucifer not so much because of Sam, but because that would be repetitive. OTOH, I won't hate it that much if that is what they do. I'm enjoying this season, so I'm willing to see how this plays out. They've made me happy enough that I'm cutting them slack and if they repeat the Sam story with Cas, I won't hate it. There are some spoilers out there that could take this in a direction that would be a problem for me, but Cas "taking over" Sam's story isn't one of them.

I do think that Cas was a complete IDIOT to let Lucifer out, and I'm less than impressed with the version of Lucifer that we are getting. I don't know if it is writing or Misha's acting or more probably a combination of both, but I'm not wildly impressed with Casifer.
20th-Feb-2016 09:12 am (UTC)
"I'm not wildly impressed with Casifer." - me neither. Misha's acting is making be uncomfortable - I'm hoping he'll get better. I know it's hard coming after a class act like Pellegrino but I'd like it better if Misha wasn't trying so hard to play Pellegrino's version and put his own spin on it.
20th-Feb-2016 03:50 am (UTC)
I think it's simply that Sam endured 180 years (at least, probably more) of torture to keep Lucifer in his cage, and now he's out again and the world's as vulnerable as it ever was before Sam did that. Sam's sacrifice failed to save the world from Lucifer, so he suffered for nothing.

Have you read this? http://themegalosaurus.livejournal.com/11678.html

Then there's the separate issue of show continually cannibalizing and undermining old story-lines and just recasting them with different characters instead of coming up with anything original but, like I say, that's a separate issue.

OK, actually, that last is a bit harsh because there has been a lot this season that's been original, but I usually hate it when they revisit old plots and characters because, nine times out of ten, they wind up undermining the moral or dramatic point that was being made in the first place.

Edited at 2016-02-20 04:02 am (UTC)
20th-Feb-2016 04:24 am (UTC)
I think it's simply that Sam endured 180 years (at least, probably more) of torture to keep Lucifer in his cage, and now he's out again and the world's as vulnerable as it ever was before Sam did that. Sam's sacrifice failed to save the world from Lucifer, so he suffered for nothing.
Yes.
20th-Feb-2016 05:50 am (UTC)
It's twofold. Sam's hundreds of years of torture to save the world from Lucifer ever having set foot on it was all for nothing. And Sam's strength at subduing Lucifer which was extraordinary, is now something that can be done by someone else so it's now not such a big deal. I have to admit it annoys the hell out of me.

What also annoys me is Sam and Dean automatically giving Cas a pass for for letting Lucifer out of the box when Sam gave so much to seal him in it. I mean why aren't they furious that Cas knowingly unleashed Lucifer into the world? I would have expected at least a little anger before they vowed to go rescue him. But no, instead we get Dean's disbelief that either Cas would have willingly done this or that he won't willingly eject Lucifer (I'm still not quite sure what his statement at the end of the episode meant). Because Cas would never willingly do something that could hurt them. *Cough* Godstiel, Sam's wall *cough* WTF?

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this season, but yes I also feel like this storyline negates Sam's massive sacrifice.
21st-Feb-2016 09:00 am (UTC)
Ah yes. I can see that.

I'm curious to see if they follow up on any anger next episode - I felt there was more of abject disappointment and despair rather than anger - from both of them. Being let down by, pretty much, the last person they thought they could trust would cut deep. And I think they would be hypocritical to be angry (maybe?) because they have also done stupid things to try and save each other, and the world. I dunno - I'm going to see how it plays out. If history of the show is anything to go by, I will no doubt be eating my words and being mighty pissed off also. And Cas ALWAYS gets a free pass - for some strange reason. Maybe they just expect him to not know what he's doing…

I'm still not convinced his sacrifice has been negated - it will never be taken away from Sam - and the we might even see him defeat Lucifer again (which is something I'd love to see I think), but I totally understand now why people are unhappy with it. Lucifer will be defeated at some point, it will be interesting to see how they go about doing this. I wonder if Amara might actually kill him. At this point in time I have no ideas about how I would like to see it end up. As long as Sam is involved somewhere (which scares me because the first half of the season was quite Sam focused, which means the second half might not be /o\).
20th-Feb-2016 06:18 am (UTC)
Oh...I hadn't come across those sentiments until just now...interesting...my gut reaction is that I don't personally feel as if Sam's S5 storyline is diminished by this current one.

I mean...life can be like that. You do something awesome, make a huge personal sacrifice, suffer greatly and then down the track, some idiot comes along and messes things up. That sucks. But it doesn't diminish what you did.

I'm sure Sam's gutted right now. I'm sure he's an absolute mess emotionally and psychologically. And I hope Show deals with that. But I don't feel as if he suffered for nothing. His actions back then were still awesome and noble and they kept the world safe for five years--until someone else blundered.
21st-Feb-2016 09:04 am (UTC)
I mean...life can be like that. You do something awesome, make a huge personal sacrifice, suffer greatly and then down the track, some idiot comes along and messes things up. That sucks. But it doesn't diminish what you did.

This is exactly how I've been seeing it too.It sucks BIG TIME, but then when has anything been easy for these guys. In fact, it's in line with them throwing awful things at them. How to make Sam suffer the most? Bring back the thing that you thought you had defeated. It's terrifying really.

I'm sure he's an absolute mess emotionally and psychologically. And I hope Show deals with that.

Yeah, not feeling overly confident that they will. But they might. We've seen some Sam emotions this season so hopefully they'll continue that.
20th-Feb-2016 07:09 am (UTC)
Having read what's been mentioned in the comments above about how Sam's storyline was undermined by the current plot, I still can't agree with that sentiment.

I don't think it's fair to compare achievements out of context. In S5 Sam was the only one who was brave enough to offer his own body to trap the devil, and was strong enough to take Lucifer down with him, and suffered all those years in the cage. Nothing that happens now could diminish any of that, because nobody else at that time could do it. Even though Lucifer is out now, the world still enjoyed several years of peace, and Sam should be thanked for that.

As for Cas's sudden ability to resist Lucifer's power, I'll settle for the idea that Cas cares about Sam that much to be able to do what Sam did for Dean. And the character of Cas is not static. That he couldn't do something in the past doesn't mean he can't do it now or in the future. If the show failed to show Cas's growth, well let fans fill in the gap. I think the point the show tries to make here is that Cas tries his best to save Sam from Lucifer, not that Sam Winchester is not cool anymore because hey look now Cas can resist Lucifer too.


Edited at 2016-02-20 07:12 am (UTC)
20th-Feb-2016 09:08 am (UTC)
Well put!
20th-Feb-2016 07:13 am (UTC)
Because Sam was Lucifer's one true vessel, the only one he could survive in, and now he isn't, any old angel could have done it. Heck, Castiel could have been Lucifer's vessel way back then when Lucifer wanted out.

Also Sam's sacrifice is in vain now, because Lucifer is free. It's like Sam's sacrifice was pointless because we're at the same place anyway, so why did he have to go through hundreds of years in the cave. It was pointless.
20th-Feb-2016 09:07 am (UTC)
The set of circumstances that created Castiel's vessel are pretty unique, so I don't think it negates the whole angel Winchester breeding programme or the significance of Sam and Dean's sacrifices in seasons 4 and 5. The angels couldn't have anticipated that there was another way to create a vessel strong enough for an archangel, after all. (And of course, we don't actually know that Castiel's vessel IS strong enough - Nick didn't start to decay until Lucifer had been occupying him for a while).

I don't think Sam's sacrifice was in vain - the circumstances are different now. The end goal of Sam's leap into the Cage was averting the Apocalypse and he succeeded. That was a massive achievement and the fact that they are now battling another world ending scenario is just Supernatural. And this time, Lucifer is possibly a weapon they can use as well as their adversary.
20th-Feb-2016 07:59 am (UTC)
What happened in Swan Song and what is happening now are 2 separate events.

In season 5 the angels wanted Lucifer freed and wanted Michael and Lucifer to battle. Sam sacrificed himself to save the world, and suffered horribly, believing it was his responsibility because he had set Lucifer free. No trying to sidestep the blame even though he had been manipulated by both sides.

Now Sam has been tricked into allowing Lucifer the opportunity to again take a vessel, and we saw the impact of being captured by Lucifer again had on Sam, we saw Sam's terror at being back in the Cage and we saw Sam rise above his fear to defy Lucifer no matter the cost! If that isn't a reprise of Sam being a Big Damn Hero, I don't know what is...

But Cas makes a terrible decision in the stress of the moment because he fears what Amara is capable of, and I think he naively believes he is protecting the Winchesters--naive because he thinks he can trust Lucifer's statement that he can defeat the Darkness. Cas has screwed up royally. But then, who hasn't, on this show? And forgiveness of massive screw-ups (by anyone other than yourself) is one of the foundations of Winchesters.

As to why Lucifer can now take any old vessel which means he didn't have to take Sam...first off, Sam is who the devil wanted. Maybe there was an alternate for him, like Michael could use Adam instead of Dean, but Luci wanted his Winchester and Sam had to deal with the terrifying idea that the devil wanted him. And Cas' vessel isn't an ordinary human vessel any more--it was destroyed in Swan Song and recreated--by God?--and therefore could easily be stronger, better able to contain grace than the standard-issue human vessel.

I truly don't see Sam's sacrifice as negated at all!
20th-Feb-2016 09:01 am (UTC)
I'm with you on this - I am guessing Castiel's vessel is no longer precisely human (having been resurrected several times now) hence it can be used by an archangel and presumably either last longer or not burn out at all. Of course we can't be sure that the writers aren't going to burn Castiel's vessel out and have Lucifer come back to Sam but I hope they don't go that route, because that would be a bit too much of a repeat of Nick and Lucifer in Season 5. Been there, done that.
20th-Feb-2016 08:53 am (UTC)
I never even thought that - mmm. Now I have thought about it, I don't see it's an issue. It doesn't make Sam's achievement in Season 5 any less impressive for me - Sam was still a mere human who managed to subdue an archangel long enough to take said archangel down. Whatever happens, that was kickass and heroic and a huge achievement. Having Cas wrestle control off Lucifer for a minute doesn't negate that. After all Cas is an angel and you'd expect him to be stronger than a human anyhow.

I do have an issue with Castiel still being inside his vessel though, because why would he be? A human is tied to their body but an angel is only occupying any body he/she's chosen so I don't see any reason for Cas still being there (except they needed to stop Lucifer from wreaking havoc and killing a Winchester or two which is exactly what's happened.
20th-Feb-2016 02:42 pm (UTC)
Re: Cas still being there -- to me, it shows how truly human Castiel is becoming. He's got an angel's power with a human heart. The best of both worlds.
20th-Feb-2016 10:14 am (UTC)
I personally don't feel that, however I can see where the thought comes from. Perhaps they feel that as Sam sacrificed so much to lock Lucifer away and it was meant to be the *only* way to either lock him down or let him out, that they've now found a way to release him diminishes the hard work and hell fire Sam went through to make sure Lucifer couldn't hurt anyone else ever again.

Also perhaps they're feeling that the pain and anguish and torture Sam's soul went through whilst being bounced around the cage could've been avoided if there was another way to let him out. However, we had no knowledge of Rowena at that point, she was off in hiding from the Grand Coven, so that would've been a moot point.

Like I said, I don't feel that, I'm kinda loving the Lucifer line of the story and it's good to have Mark back :)
22nd-Feb-2016 01:59 pm (UTC)
I have loved seeing Mark P back. He's so delicious as Lucifer!

I totally understand the resentment of the current story line (now, after reading the comments). I admit I still don't feel it, but (as has happened in the past) some people can see where things are going before I can. If Sam is, once again, blamed for Lucifer being free then we are back to square one. Ack! we shall see. I often change my mind and this could be one of those instances. So far, I've liked the way Sam has battled against Lucifer - even after he was tricked. :)
20th-Feb-2016 11:46 am (UTC)
While I understand where people are coming from I do not share the sentiment, either applied to SPN nor real life.

Heroic acts are heroic, and sacrificing yourself for the greater good is nobel, independantly of the longer-term outcome or whether or not other people could or did complete the same heroic act or sacrifice. What Sam did was a heroic sacrifice no matter the long-term outcome, or if somebody else repeats it.

While I'm not a particular friend of the overall mystic arc in later season (I seem to enjoy the motw stuff much more now) I don't mind what happens to Luci and who does it as long as IT'S A GOOD STORY.
22nd-Feb-2016 02:18 pm (UTC)
*nods*

I'm generally not a fan of the myth arc either - give me MoTW any day! And I try not to ponder too hard because I know the writers don't (and can't, it would be too much for them too!).

I think past actions do count toward significance and character - even if they get turned around later on.
21st-Feb-2016 01:01 am (UTC)
Count me among those that believe this storyline cheapens Sam's sacrifice. He saved the world and prevented the Apocalypse. The Amara storyline is BS to me (not helped by the fact that she talks like a snarky sitcom character). Suddenly having witchcraft strong enough to lift Lucifer out of hell devalues everything we went through S1-5.

Now? No big, Lucifer can jump into Cas. Sam was his one true vessel. You can argue that Cas can contain Lucifer, but why does this even have to be an issue? For me this season it's the standalones that do it for me, that have as little as possible to do with Amara and Lucifer. Plus, it's painful to watch Misha's acting.
22nd-Feb-2016 02:24 pm (UTC)
Consider yourself counted in! It's been quite the mixed bag in the reactions. Both reactions have made sense to me.

Jury is out n terms of Amara. I'll have to see where that goes before I know. If she goes the way of Eve, Rowena or Abaddon then I'll be calling BS too. But in all honesty - what are they going to be able to do? there will be some undiscovered magic that will "kill" her and that will be that. I dunno. I'd love them to do something remarkable - but even then, I don't know what that would be.

Yay stand alones! They have been the best so far. :)
21st-Feb-2016 01:51 am (UTC)
One of the complaints I've heard is that apparently Lucifer had said that Sam was his "true vessel" or some words like that back in S5 (and at first the same was thought of Dean to Michael, but then they changed that into "as long as it's from the same bloodline" to have Adam be the vessel instead).
22nd-Feb-2016 02:27 pm (UTC)
Yeah, it's been fluid. Back then Sam was his "true vessel", but things have changed it looks like. I doubt this would happen, but it would be curious if Lucifer can be rejected because Cas isn't his "true" vessel. Though I think show is long past the notion of the Winchesters and their bloodlines. Maybe...
21st-Feb-2016 11:49 am (UTC)
Others have already said this, but I think the thing that shocked me when it happened was that I had been fixated on the idea of Sam being Lucifer's one true vessel, therefore Luci's only way out of the Cage, and the idea that Cas could just say yes had never occured to me.

But that's what's fun about this show for me, too. I love the little twists and unexpected turns, and after the recent episode (11.14) I'm pretty jazzed at the way this is going. That episode (and this whole season so far) is awesome!
22nd-Feb-2016 02:29 pm (UTC)
Agrees (so far! *g*). I was completely baffled by Cas saying "yes", but it is a direction I didn't see coming (well, much). Things have changed so much since S5 that I'm not that surprised they've taken this direction. And who know…Sam may still be his one "true" vessel. Though, that's a depressing thought for poor Sam.
22nd-Feb-2016 04:21 pm (UTC)
I didn't like how easily Cas 'overcame' Lucifer to stop him from killing Sam. I feel like that trivializes Sam a little bit.
23rd-Feb-2016 10:28 am (UTC)
Oh you didn't? I'm not sure if you saw a comment above, but it suggests cas was only able to do that after he powered up on Sam's soul. So Sam still has a connection to Lucifer - and might even find a way of freeing cas from him. We'll see!
22nd-Feb-2016 05:21 pm (UTC)
Wanted to add one thought, sorry if someone else already mentioned this. I think Cas was only able to, very briefly, overpower Luci because he had touched Sam's soul. This wasn't Cas' power or love for Sam, it was the power of Sam's soul, which was the very thing that overpowered Luci before. And I don't think this is headcanon, I think the scene was written that way. Not sure if this makes a difference for those very upset, but it's something.
23rd-Feb-2016 10:34 am (UTC)
It's only been mentioned recently (new comment above) and I really really like the idea, I mean, I like that Cas fought to hold Lucifer back but I love that he was able to do it from the power of Sam's soul. That's awesome. I'll have to watch it again, but I'm not sure it was written that way. It's certainly not the impression I got when I watched it both times. It felt like cas came out because Sam was dying - but it makes so much sense that he was able to do that after his soul was touched. Thank you!
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