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just enough to make us dangerous
Damn it... 
29th-May-2011 10:31 pm
Becc_j Art
Don't make me do this! (because the anal in me has a needs to...)

Does anyone know if there are stats on how many female characters have been killed compared to males in the Show...? (as in the Ellen and Ash variety... but also the victim of the week variety..?)

You know if there isn't it's gonna have to be done. I can't make statements like "Show is an equal opportunity killer of male and female characters" without statistical back up.

What? I have a life. I do. It's just my brain doesn't..


/o\
Comments 
29th-May-2011 02:37 pm (UTC)
*laughs* I know of no such list. However, if I happen to stumble upon one, I'll let you and your brain know.
29th-May-2011 02:50 pm (UTC)
It really is kinda embarrassing isn't it? The stuff my brain thinks of. Though it's not entirely my fault. It did come up in response to someone else's post...

That's my excuse any way..

29th-May-2011 02:52 pm (UTC)
I think you would have to do some complicated math thing (English major here) where you figured out how many (non-lead) male characters there were, how many female characters there were, and then figured out what percentage of each had been killed.

They way I've seen it, they pretty much kill everyone who isn't Sam, Dean, Bobby, or Cas...

It's kind of my least favorite thing about Show.
29th-May-2011 03:01 pm (UTC)
Ah! See.. that's my thinking. They kill everyone who isn't Sam and Dean. And then Bobby and Cas. Ok. So they are all guys so that doesn't really help, but I kinda want to prove (or explore) the notion that show doesn't just kill off women, or ethnic minorities... it's basically anyone.

They've made it their "thing"...

29th-May-2011 03:23 pm (UTC)
Here. Haven't gotten around to calculating stats past S1, though, and I do note that the surviving recurring characters are mostly male and that the characters who resurrect without ill effect are entirely male.
29th-May-2011 11:15 pm (UTC)
Wow! Those stat look amazing. Incredibly detailed. Hee.. though, no wonder you didn't go past S1. That's a lot figures!

I think if I was going to do this (and changes are I just won't have time) I would merely look at deaths. I know (as stated below) that doesn't take into consideration how characters are treated on the show, but this would be more about cold hard data rather than who survived and why etc...

Thanks so much for the link though. That's amazing. :)
29th-May-2011 03:31 pm (UTC)
Honestly, this has been attempted several times and the stats didn't add much to the discussion for me -- it either looked like the show was an equal opportunity killer or the show had a bias, depending on who you listened to. I can believe that the show is an equal opportunity killer, but to me it's more germane to look at the "survival count" in relation to the death count. There are four white males who have consistently made it through season after season and no women and no CoC.
29th-May-2011 08:06 pm (UTC)
Agreed. Whether or not they're an equal opportunuty killer is anyone's guess, but and equal opportunity survivor? No. Lisa's the only blip on their perfect record of killing off female supporting characters. (And now that I've said that, she gonna get the axe in s7, huh? Damn) Anyway, I think it's important to note that that doesn't seem to be due to a gender bias on the writers' or kripke's part. Jensen actually alluded to this in an interview, it's because the fanbase is so adamant about the Sam'n'Deanness of the show that female characters get minimal to no support and are eventually kiled off the way any unpopular characters are. I just think it's an important distinction, cuz any gender biases of a show usually end up being attributed to someone behind the show, and I don't think that's the case here.

Incidentally, I. Bet we could pool our efforts and drum up a kill list if we just divide and conquer. Maybe I'm just outing my own fannish geekery here, but I bet it'd be pretty easy to skim through eps and remember 'oh yeah, he died, and her and her'. Say, half a season each in a 12-person effort? ;) and mercuryblue's already started us of... :p

Edited at 2011-05-29 08:07 pm (UTC)
29th-May-2011 04:02 pm (UTC)
I admire your intention!

I think it's challenging to do this, not just because they kill everyone but because they bring everyone back, too. Is it a negative if they kill off Mary in the pilot but bring her back in multiple episodes?

This is a show that has 2 regular characters (3 in season 6) and several recurring characters. I think people can't fairly criticize the show for not killing off the regulars. So you should focus on the recurring characters.

If I were crazy enough to tackle this, I'd list all the characters I considered recurring (and I'm sure other folks would come up with other lists), and then I'd note race and sex if that was the purpose of my study, and then I'd note if they'd been killed or not, and then I'd note if they re-appeared in later episodes or not.

And then see if the stats seemed to indicate any conclusions based on race or sex. How many white male recurring characters were there and what percent never died. How many non-white male recurring characters were there and what percent never died. And ditto for the females.

And for each of those categories, what percent came back in some way after getting killed?

(Of course, some might say you shouldn't limit the analysis to recurring characters - it should be any characters. But man, that would be a daunting task!)

... in your abundant free time *g*
30th-May-2011 09:46 am (UTC)
In other words.... RUN! If I had all the time in the world I might look closer at this but really it was simply a stats thing. X amount of guys killed, X amount of gals and then maybe the resurrected count. But yeah. This looks like a hot topic so I think I shall steer away.

Show is definitely oozing testosterone and there's an issue of no lead women, but actually I don't mind that. The boys are a major reason (nearly only reason??) I watch. And the women they have had I've mostly loved also..

And yes. I have SO much free time to be concentrating on the things. Speaking of which... I want to dig up some links... ;)

xx
29th-May-2011 04:16 pm (UTC)
I don't know, if your purpose is to demonstrate that the show is equal opportunity in regards to women and minorities I guess you should take more into consideration the way the characters are dealt with in the episodes, not their deaths. I mean, as in their purpose and role in the story.

I mean, on SPN anyone dies but the 4 male leads, that's the way it works, so I think the killing count doesn't really prove anything anymore...
30th-May-2011 09:53 am (UTC)
hey you! (ack... ::koff::: opponent you...*g*)

To be honest I wasn't really thinking that deeply about it when I typed. It was more to know whether in fact more men were killed compared to women. Simple stats. The "equal opportunity" probably skewed what I was thinking about.

I think it's because I sometimes hear "and they killed another female..." and my internal response is.. but men are killed just as much.

The whole (huge) issue of whether women or minorities are treated equally or fairly is another matter all together. And not one I am willing to approach - mainly because it would be pretty tough to quantify the findings. I think.

My brain needs to stop my fingers from typing sometimes.. *g*

29th-May-2011 04:16 pm (UTC)
Yeah, and what gets dead doesn't always stay dead - so that might be an interesting variable..*g*

And let's face it - even the boys and Cas have all been offed at some point.

Which makes Bobby Singer the last man standing, I guess..



Edited at 2011-05-29 04:16 pm (UTC)
30th-May-2011 09:59 am (UTC)
Ah yes! The dead variable is a killer really. (hee...pun probably not intended *g*)

Reading all the comments here I think it all becomes really, really difficult. Especially for my wee brain.

Though even Bobby has been killed once.

I might be wrong but I'm thinking that Misouri might be the only person in the boys lives that wasn't killed. Oh Sarah also...and Cassie...and Rebecca...Hmmmm... all women. I'm trying to think of guys but I'm coming up blank....

Whoa! I was going to lay off the topic and then I got all thinky again. I better stop now.

xx
29th-May-2011 10:01 pm (UTC)
death and resurrection of recurring characters

I don't think the statistics approach is actually valid. Someone can always argue that the show is misogynist because it was 2 male leads. *sigh* It's no different from a Sam girl arguing that the show hates Sam because Dean gets more minutes on screen.

My point would be that the idea of a character being killed (in terms of an analysis of how a certain group is treated) as something 'bad' is not valid. That only holds if death removes a character from the narrative ie if female chacrters only purpose was to appear, have no character development, not be part of the story, get killed and disappear.

In Supernatural being dead doesn't take a character out of the story. A good example is mary - killed in the first five minutes of the show, but a recurring character who's integral to the narrative for 6 seasons.



30th-May-2011 10:12 am (UTC)
I don't think the statistics approach is actually valid.

Yeah, that's been the general feedback I've been getting re this and in hindsight saying "equal opportunity" might have made it look like I was thinking about how the show treats men compared to women. Which yeah... I kinda did say that. But it's not really what I was pondering.

Essentially I keep hearing that more women are killed then guys, and the same for minorities - so it was simply to look at cold hard facts rather than how and why characters are killed. I think that is huge argument and not one I am particularly interested in at the moment. Mainly because it can be looked at in so many different ways - depending on personal views. very hard to quantify.

The fact that Show has 2 males leads and 2 male co-stars makes it testosterone heavy anyway. And mostly I don't have an issue with that because that's what I signed up for. (well, the 2 boys anyway..)

But yeah... I think doing stats on this would be too hard because, as you say, what about the resurrections? And does Ellen appearing in an alternate reality count etc.

Ack! Sorry, got all thinky there for a moment...
<3
30th-May-2011 12:05 am (UTC)
I don't think it's only about the death count, but about the resurrection count, and about why the characters were killed. Women in Fridges as opposed to Dead Men Defrosting. Mary, Ellen, Jo, Bela die, etc, it affects the Sam/Dean storyline. The whole purpose of the Lisa&Ben storyline was to give something for Dean to angst over. Sam, Dean, Castiel, Crowley, Bobby die, they are brought back, and their story takes an even more interesting turn.
30th-May-2011 10:33 am (UTC)
Yeah. I probably wasn't thinking this deeply about it to be honest...I think the examination of death and the effect it has is a wonderful thing to examine. And really interesting. I suppose I was really just interested in cold hard fact. No real link to any meaning behind it. Which of course wasn't how I made it sound I realise now... /o\

And after reading the interesting comments here I think it's probably not something I will explore. Very murky indeed...
xx
30th-May-2011 08:43 am (UTC)
Interesting comments here.... :)

If your brain doesn't have a life I suggest it at least should have a vacation. :D



But of course that brings up the question wether I don't have a life because of spending my time creating vacation coupons. Hahaha!

30th-May-2011 09:41 am (UTC)
HA!! I HEART this completely...

and after reading the comments I reckon my brain does indeed need a holiday!! I kinda new this was a hot topic, but I didn't realise how well thought out it was.

There will certainly be no list making from me. (though there's this little geeky part of me that would love to analyse, but I just do not have the time!)

<33333333333
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