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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
7.02 Various thoughts on various bits... 
3rd-Oct-2011 06:51 pm
He's not dead
Now that I've had a chance to digest that (and read all your thoughtful comments re 7.02- thank you <3) I have been pondering a few things...



Castiel

1. Something struck me. I suppose it's kinda obvious but it fell into place for me now that I've had a chance to reflect on Castiel's overall story arc. Show is about family, there's no doubt about that. But I think Show is also about growing up. My feeling is that the boys have done a lot of growing up over the last 6 years. In that time they made mistakes and learned from them. They have both lost "control" in one way or another and (unwittingly) created greater problems for themselves and the world. Dean brought Sam back from the dead. Even after his own "what's dead should stay dead" mantra. It created a domino effect for things to come. He died, went to hell, Sam lost himself in trying to get him back and ended up releasing Lucifer into the world. Sam redeemed himself by returning Luci to the cage and Dean redeemed himself by retrieving Sam's soul from the pit. Throughout that journey the boys matured. Their relationship suffered but now it seems to be back on solid ground.

Cas, in many ways, has been on a similar journey. Cas had a job to perform - retrieve Dean's soul from hell. Cas could have disappeared then but stayed and started to question. Discovering that there was more than just taking orders. In making contact with humans he learned about free will. He learned about making choices and making sacrifices. He learned what it was to have friends. He also learned about power and control.

Cas has been referred to as a "child" a couple of times and I see this as being quite literal. He's a child, learning as he grows up. Making mistakes, as we do as children and teenagers and even adults. He, like the boys, lost control and (unwittingly) released the new big into the world. We saw a little bit of his realisation of his mistake before the leviathans took control (a bit like we did when Sam learned about what Ruby was really up to).

There's more to come for Cas (is my point). He hasn't had a chance to fully redeem himself the way the boys have. I totally believe he will and it will become extremely important for the way the leviathans are finally dealt with. Pure speculation on my part, but Castiel's grace will still be around and therefore there is still potential for him to make right his wrong.

(I want to make a small Cas vid. I'm not sure whether to make it a little tongue-in-cheek to the song "What About Me", or make a kinda of tribute to Hallelujah (or a different song maybe?) )

Other Stuff

2. John's journal? Yes? No? I think Dean discards it too nonchalantly for it to be THE journal. (God I hope so..) Also, I'm sure that binding is too thick. A book me thinks...(??)




3. How on earth do those hellucinations work? Sam's mind is creating them yeah? So he's putting those words into Luci's mouth. That is seriously screwed up. He is essentially torturing himself. He drove in a strange black van, thinking it was the impala and that he was a passenger. He hallucinated that and then changed the hallucination when he entered the building. It was as though he had realised that that wasn't Dean (about the same time we were).

Curious that there's not been mention of Adam/Michael. It's as though it was only the two of them down there. Bunk buddies. Argh... I can't get my head around it all at them moment.

Also. I know this won't be the case (please ...no) but the notion that ALL of Sam's life is something Lucifer conjured up during his spare time in the cage is .... ack...food for thought.


4. Pain is different in hell than earth. I LOVE this more that anything. But does that mean Sam will have to be in constant pain to remove Luci from his mind? (Of course the hurt!Sam fan in me is wallowing in that but still.... that will not be a way to live).


5. Would Dean really drive them off a cliff (or pier). Could he do that? Dean's really at the end of his tether to even suggest that. (a must read coda relating to that by counteragent. Just... *sniff* and YES.)


6. No more blood addiction yeah? (hee... I mean. The boy has enough to contend with methinks..) Wouldn't it be awful interesting if demon blood "cured" Sam of this hallucinations. Damn. That's too screwed up to even think about.


7. When the leviathans take over a body the person dies yeah? (quietly keeping up my death count..)


8. What the hell will Bobby do now? Jeez. To have lost his wonderful home. The panic room will be still standing and unaffected I reckon. So maybe some stuff have been saved. *hopes* And where the hell is Bobby?

I'll leave you with this: (and yes, please do marvel at how damn clever I am to put those pic in boxes *g*) Thanks dotfic

Having a "real" home (that is not the Impala) is just not on the cards for our boys.

Lawrence
Stanford
Roadhouse
Bobby's



It's weird how the boys are really up shit creek without a paddle and yet it's not nearly as painful to watch as when they were fighting and not communicating. They've lost everything and yet because they have each other all is right in the (Supernatural) world. *happy sigh*



(damn, that's a lot of questions. I'm mostly musing out loud. Don't mind me. *g*).
Comments 
3rd-Oct-2011 11:14 am (UTC)
Because I have time before I have to go make some semblance of dinner,let me just say i do adore when folks get thinky without going overboard. I really like all of the points above.

And if you're looking for a Cas song, I'll toss one on the pile that I heard today for the first time in a long while on the ipod of my workmate's car. I sat there listening until he kinda snapped his fingers at me. :P To me it talks of redemption and soldiering on with your friends/family as we know everyone on this show has to do at some stage.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bon+jovi/something+to+believe+in_20022273.html
3rd-Oct-2011 02:03 pm (UTC)
Hey there!

Thanks hun. That ep has been playing on my mind, but nothing that's worth getting tooooo thinky about. Just those little thoughts.

Those lyrics are pretty damn spot on for Cas. Hard song to vid to though. Well, for me. ;) Not really sure what I really want to do yet...

Considering all the other vids I want to do it will probably sit on the back burner for a while. We'll see.

Thanks! :)
3rd-Oct-2011 12:26 pm (UTC)
I don't think it was John's journal - it looks too thick.

That last thing - it's definitely not as painful to watch because they're in things together which, in SPN verse, means things are still bad, but not awful.
3rd-Oct-2011 02:05 pm (UTC)
Yeah... that's my thought too.

Yes!! IN IT TOGETHER! \o/ AT LAST! ::koff:: oh. I wasn't going to shout this time. :D I'm still bouncy about it all. :D

xx
3rd-Oct-2011 12:36 pm (UTC)
The Leviathans are interesting, in the way they operate. First, I assume they need to actually touch their victims. That's why LeviaCas had to leave the warehouse when his vessel started melting -- Sam, Dean, and Bobby weren't enough to house them. (Not to mention they have experience at rejecting possession.)

Hence the water distribution method. Then, it seemed like they took over their first victims without killing the host (though hard to say for sure). But in order to switch vessels, perhaps they need to feed? It is really interesting that they operate more or less like shapeshifters, rather than demons, learning whatever their host knows in the process of becoming them.

Also interesting that they're concerned about discovery, and fitting in. They must have something to fear. Maybe something Cas knew? But they didn't see Bobby and the Winchesters as a serious threat, at first. Why would they need to hide, though? It seems as though they could feed at will (like on a nice church congregation or classroom full of kids) and then flee the scene, take over new bodies, and keep moving. Curious.
3rd-Oct-2011 02:13 pm (UTC)
First, I assume they need to actually touch their victims.

Yes. They couldn't just let them selves explode out of Cas. Maybe they die if the leave a body without a host. Hmmmm....

it seemed like they took over their first victims without killing the host (though hard to say for sure).

Hmm. Yes. We didn't actually see what became of that little girl. I don't think. I'll have to go back and check. But they do seem to take on the knowledge of the host. They don't seem naive about the modern world for example.

Also interesting that they're concerned about discovery, and fitting in.

Hmm... another chin rubbing question. Instead of just feeding on whom ever they come across they want to be discreet. There's also a boss I think.

I fear I was paying too much attention to samndean to be concentrating on the leviathan law. I'm sure more will be revealed as show moves on. I'm sure not every episode can be about them so they will have to be hard to track down (aka hiding) so our boys can be hunting other MotWs in other eps.

We shall see. *rubs hands*
3rd-Oct-2011 01:01 pm (UTC)

I love your icon. I agree, Cas isn't gone till we get a wing shot but I think the whole trenchcoat bit means even if he comes back as Misha (he will), he'll have been drastically changed. Losing the trenchcoat is like shedding an old skin. I'm hoping it will mean he'll have grown.

I'm guessing leviathan people are really dead in the same way as somebody vamped or werewolved. The leviathans seem to be picking up what they know about humans from the people they grab. They may know a lot about the Winchesters because of what they got from Cas but I'm not sure they've really got a good grasp on human behavior from that. Maybe Sam and Dean can exploit that.

I agree, it doesn't look like John's journal. I'm thinking they keep it with the trunk arsenal, of course who knows where that is now with the Impala being repaired. So they're pretty much down to John's storage locker and the Campbell's library, I guess? I'm guessing Bobby never got back to the house or that he made it to the panic room.

With Dean driving off a pier, I think he's been suicidal for a while, probably at least since his run-in with Famine. He's a mess and he's self-medicating and that always turns out well. What's more unnerving is that he said he'd take Sam off the pier with him. That's pretty telling about where he think's Sam's head is at even after the whole hand wound grab thing. I wonder how Dean's body is going to react to being in the hospital without alcohol.

Oh dear, seems like I went on and on there......

3rd-Oct-2011 03:44 pm (UTC)
I thought icon was well appropriate. :) We didn't actually see Cas die... so jury is out.

Losing the trenchcoat is like shedding an old skin. I'm hoping it will mean he'll have grown.

oooh... yes. Nice. That would be great.

The Leviathans are interesting. I think we have a lot more to learn about them yet. killabeez mentioned above about them needing to hide, so they much have some sort of weakness. I'm really curious about where they take this.

So they're pretty much down to John's storage locker and the Campbell's library,

Oh yes. I wonder if they'll make a point of that. The locker hasn't really been mentioned much (at all?). And the Campbell library also. *chin rub*

I wonder how Dean's body is going to react to being in the hospital without alcohol.

OMG, what a thought. I doubt they'll even broach that but what an interesting idea. I wonder if Dean would suffer withdrawal without it? I am actually hoping we get more on Dean and his alcoholism. Good point .

Oh dear, seems like I went on and on there......

HEE! I don't think there's a worry there... you've seen my post yeah?!

:D

3rd-Oct-2011 01:24 pm (UTC)
YAY! Picspam!

I was talking only yesterday about the similarities with season 1's tally of losses, how it's losing their home that seems to drive Dean to the brink - in the episode Home - he makes that phone call to John - where are you, I need you - it's Sam - he's having these dreams and I can't cope - again now after seeing Bobby's house gone and all his books - yeah, I'm sure that's a research book not a journal - but it's interesting that it's here he makes that similar phone call...and again it's Sam - his beautiful, brilliant brother who's having these hallucinations that Dean doesn't understand. Asylum is where Sam last fired a weapon at Dean and Sam is being controlled by an evil entitiy again this time - Faith - where Dean's down and in the hospital... ACK it's driving my brain to MUSH! How I love it when they touch on the past, their shared history like this.

I'm not 100% all these 'hallucinations' ARE from Sam's mind, maybe Lucifer CAN still control his mind from the cage - they did once share a body and the YED did talk to Lucifer through the nun's body - so jury is still out on that one for me.

Leviathan are strange aren't they? They seem to feed on flesh - not much of that around in purgatory, so I presume that makes them strong? In their unique original form they seem like gloop - angels are glowy, demons are smokey and leviathan are gloopy, so I get that bit, but then after taking over a host they can then use that host to assimilate and change into another form - taking the knowledge from that host too - why not jump hosts? Maybe they can't? Maybe that will be their weakness, they can change form but once in a host can't live long in this world as gloopiness? (shhhhh you, gloopiness is SO a word!) I'm not sure what their game plan is though, destroy human kind, take over the world, open purgatory again or maybe it's just a survival thing, they are damned creepy though

And I'm sure we'll see Cas again - he's been blown to smithereens twice already, I don't see a leviathan actually destroying him for good and I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing his host's body around yet, I'm still thinking Misha had far too much fun playing that leviathan for there not to be an opening there.

3rd-Oct-2011 03:55 pm (UTC)
Pictures in a table! I feel so CLEVER!! \o/ ahem..

OH GOD YES YES!! Dean making PHONE CALLS to signify breaking down! ARGH! I love it. He's losing so much... How is that boy still walking?!

I am desperate to see where he goes now. Both boys are on the brink of a type of madness. *heart clutch* (i love it)

oooh... so many Lu does have some sort of control of the hallucinations. I'm really struggling to grasp how they actually work. They seem SO real... in terms of Lucifer really being there... not just Sam imaging what he is saying.

The leviathans seem to be a mystery at the moment (glad I'm not the only one who hasn't figured it out yet), which is great of course because we will probably learn more about them as the boys do. (I sincerely hope show has a plan for then...has worked out the "rules". Surely they know we'll pick it to pieces if they don't..*g*)

"Gloopiness" is perfect. :D

Yeah...Cas isn't so easily gotten rid of.;D

xx
3rd-Oct-2011 02:07 pm (UTC)
How on earth do those hellucinations work? Sam's mind is creating them yeah? So he's putting those words into Luci's mouth. That is seriously screwed up. He is essentially torturing himself. He drove in a strange black van, thinking it was the impala and that he was a passenger. He hallucinated that and then changed the hallucination when he entered the building. It was as though he had realised that that wasn't Dean (about the same time we were).

See, I think hell is only part of the problem. It's the biggest, ugliest part, yes, but still only part. Sam's experience of reality has to be seriously fragmented right now - he's got a purely physical and a purely spiritual set of memories banging around in his head. And on top of that, the idea that this is too good to be true is a fairly logical one to hit on. He was supposed to be gone forever.

Office block-to-warehouse Dean-to-Lucifer is the best trick his mind can play on him. Reality isn't really going to melt away into hell, but this is pretty close - and he really does believe that's what's going to happen. Until Lucifer showed up, he seemed to be dealing with the idea that he was coping with some very scary flashbacks. After that, he was desperate to be convinced he was really home - but until the warehouse scene, he didn't come close to believing it. His perceptions of what the world should feel like are already off kilter from being torn in two, and the last time he was all in one piece he was stuck with the knowledge that this was forever. Thus all the talk of suicide - I mean, he suspects he is dead, so he should just accept it.

Curious that there's not been mention of Adam/Michael. It's as though it was only the two of them down there. Bunk buddies. Argh... I can't get my head around it all at them moment.

You know, I wondered about that. But Castiel brought Sam back soulless - and how would you do that? If Sam stayed normally alive in the cage, it should have been harder to separate body and soul than to miss one, and even if he died - well, the bit that's just lying there would be the body, and the bit that Lucifer is poking with hot irons would be the soul. That should be obvious. But Sam, Adam, Lucifer and Michael fell into the cage as four people in two bodies - and at the moment I'm assuming they stayed that way. So Castiel grabbed the wrong handful, and Death had to go in later and peel Sam and Lucifer apart. Even after Sam was left bodiless, Michael and Adam could have stayed as they were. I guess Lucifer has nothing to say about Adam because Sam has no frame of reference for him - he only ever saw what Lucifer wanted him to see, and what happened between Adam and Michael, or Michael and Lucifer, was a mystery to him.

Would Dean really drive them off a cliff (or pier). Could he do that? Dean's really at the end of his tether to even suggest that.

I think in practice, unless he was even further gone than he is at present, Sam would put his foot down and wave his arms and yell a lot, and that would be the end of that plan. :) But yes - I think he's wavering on the edge. He can't see the point of living, but unlike the time he went to hell, he can't imagine dying and abandoning Sam to whatever the world has in store either.
3rd-Oct-2011 04:12 pm (UTC)
As always, you present some very interesting points.

The hallucination thing is just so...messy. Screwed up messy. Thinking about the fact that he was supposed to be in hell forever is a great point. It really wouldn't take much for him to believe it's all make believe. Not real. His "hallucination" is, after all, making some damn good points.

The Adam/Michael point makes sense. I always imaged the angels separating themselves from their hosts but that doesn't have to be the case. Lucifer remained in Sam's body that whole time. They shared a body. Hmmm, maybe that's more the reference to "bunk buddy" and "spooning". They were that close. If Lu remained inside Sam's body then any physical hurt and pain would have been committed mentally not physically. Damn. That works for me. I hadn't thought of that before. So maybe... he wasn't abused in the pit in a sexual way (as some of the comments in the last 2 episodes have suggested) but maybe in a suggested (imagined) way only. Which would, no doubt, be just as bad.

That probably makes no sense. I'm past my bedtime.

Thanks for the awesome thinky hun! <3

ETA: Damn. Just thought how that works with Sam's body being pulled out but not his soul. Maybe both Sam's soul and Lu's "entity" become one.

Must be bed time../o\

Edited at 2011-10-03 04:23 pm (UTC)
3rd-Oct-2011 03:21 pm (UTC)
I was thinking about Sam's hallucinations...

So at least 1/2 of the time, he was without his body in the pit? Just his soul, right... so maybe part of his soul brought back hell with it. So maybe it's not just that he's hallucinating, but that he's still got some hell stuck inside.

(the things this show makes me write!)

As for Cas, I completely agree. He's got redemption still to come. :)
3rd-Oct-2011 03:30 pm (UTC)
So maybe it's not just that he's hallucinating, but that he's still got some hell stuck inside.

*pounces* on this. That makes sense to me. It seems like Lu is actually really there. Now, I know that he probably isn't but if (somehow) part of hell is physically still with Sam then that could work. I'm struggling with Sam actually putting those words in Lu's mouth (of course it's possible) they are just too Lucifer like. (ah, yes... the stuff show is making me write../o\)

It would also mean that that part of hell could possibly be removed rather than Sam staying permanently "beautiful mind". *shrugs* no idea... With this show anything is possible. :)
xx
3rd-Oct-2011 06:36 pm (UTC)
Too many intriguing questions - not enough time to ponder! So I'll just throw my Adam theory at you...

Since it's clearly possible to pull a body from the afterlife and leave the soul behind, isn't it possible that Adam's soul is still in heaven, and when Zachariah yanked him out, he just got the body? In which case, yeah, Adam's body fell in the pit, possessed by Michael, but his soul is still in heaven from when the ghouls killed him originally?
4th-Oct-2011 03:04 am (UTC)
Oh wow... I have never considered that. I love it. That works for me SO well. That will be my fanon now. I hate thinking of Adam still suffering in the pit....

\o/
4th-Oct-2011 12:57 am (UTC)
I thought they showed the burnt book as a symbol. (Not John's journal though, it really looks like on of Bobby's books.) That there is nothing in books anymore that can help them, that they have to find new ways to deal with new (well, and very old- the Leviathans)problems.

I also think the Leviathans can only move in water when not in a human body. They would be easy to kill on land. That was my impression anyway.
And I think they felt very fearless when they were all together in the angel-vessel. But seeing that that burst, they have become more careful.
4th-Oct-2011 03:09 am (UTC)
Ooh yes. Good point. As one big group they are much more dangerous. But they have been dispersed so individually they are not so strong. Though, they seem pretty capable of killing even by themselves. We can only imagine the damage if they all come together. Which is probably what they are trying to do.

And yes about the book. The boys don't have the usual books to rely on now, so finding out how to kill these things might not be as straight forward.
Thanks honey.
4th-Oct-2011 03:37 am (UTC)
heyo, jumping in for round two of thinky thoughts. i heartily second #2 and 3. I had the same thought about the book, then dismissed it cuz Dean would never do that to anything important and/or useful. as for #3...a) yeah, I think Sam's totally doing that to himself. I had this very eery thought of, what if seeing through the cracks actually means seeing *through*, to hell, and this is all the devil can do? but, naw, i think it really is sam. his face when he said 'I thought I was with you, Dean' just about broke me. and b) i mostly just want them to mention adam for continuity's sake, but I can definitely see both angels going 'this one's mine, get your own'. (or maybe even Michael being fine with Lucifer driving his own vessel nuts?) but, yeah, so. Show just did that. with the spooning and the noncon. not that this isn't plenty blatant, but I wonder if they'll ever come out and say it. hrmm. ::thinks:: that could totally throw a curve into your sam's post-hell sexuality postulations :/

and 7) methinks yes?

P.S. Forgot to mention. this ep totally rocked my socks :) I was struck and amazed and so so happy. i know some people are less so, but I actually felt like the show was taking good care of us.

Edited at 2011-10-04 03:43 am (UTC)
4th-Oct-2011 12:36 pm (UTC)
that could totally throw a curve into your sam's post-hell sexuality postulations :/

Wouldn't that be really interesting?! I thought the "you're my bitch" comment might be as blatant as we get. But if they actually follow this up with Sam having issues sexually that would be incredible. Oh Sammy.... the sex meta would definitely take a different turn.

7) I'm thinking the girl and the two guys count as levia!deaths. Then there's the woman in the hospital. Mills as a survivor? Plus the swim team... I have to sit and do some counting but I think I'll count those.

Oh YES! The episode totally rocked! Show is indeed taking good care of us. I'd say it's mostly the Cas fans who maybe aren't too happy. I think the SamnDean fans were in heaven! :D
4th-Oct-2011 04:35 am (UTC)
The Panic Room! You make a marvelous point! BOBBY IS ALIVE AND IN THE PANIC ROOM! Mystery solved and hope remains!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4th-Oct-2011 12:41 pm (UTC)
Hee! I'd love to think Bobby made it safely to the panic room. Only.... methinks that would have been the first place Dean checked when he went into the house. Can't be certain, but it's where I would head.

I'm just hopeful there's at least some resources still kicking around.

But yes! Maybe Bobby was hiding in there and Dean didn't see him. *nods*

<3
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