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Enquiring minds needs to know.. 
10th-Oct-2011 08:58 pm
He's not dead

Where is Castiel's grace?

I've been trying to research this, (thanks Superwiki) but it seems that Show hasn't really mentioned it so there's no canonical answer to this. Is that right? Or have I missed something?

The options, that I can see, are:

- Returned to heaven (would he be accepted back?)

- Released into purgatory when the souls were returned (though he was still Cas after that event...so, hmm... not sure. It begs the question was Cas still an angel, with his original powers, after that event?).

- Dispersed when the leviathans were released.

- In hell. He's been a naughty angel after all. Fallen?

- Nowhere. Maybe Cas has been without his grace for awhile (though I assume this is what makes an angel and angel so ...?)

- in the too hard basket. (Yep. Probably this one).

The reason I'm asking (other than because of a vid I am struggling with making), is because it could mean something for his future redemption. *head scratch* not sure. And I just wanna know.

I think waay too much about this show.

I re-watched 7.03 today. On the first watch I was squeeing too hard at watching Colin to actually listen to what he was saying (/o\) on re-watch I noticed how much he was giving us about the MotW. The "yelling" of "stab it in the heart"... held a lot more weight this time around.

I also love the way he talks to Dean and John on the phone. So telling about his relationship with them.

He also mentions John having a temper when drunk.

YOUNG AMY: Yeah, well, she has a temper. Sometimes. It's...no big deal.
YOUNG SAM: My dad does, too. You don't want to see him when he's drinking.

Is he suggesting he may have taken temper out on his boys when drunk? John's temper has been mentioned before (Bobby in Devil's Trap I think..) but it's the first time the suggestion has been made that he may have taken it out on his boys (I believe). I figure that John was a disciplinarian, very strict etc. but to now know that he possibly raised his hand to the boys after drinking....*sniff* ...they really did it tough didn't they? (at least they had each other. And still do. *hugs* them)

Damn, I'm loving this season.
10th-Oct-2011 02:28 pm (UTC)
Don't know about Cas's grace. :-)

But I've often thought the same about John. There was that line in DSOTM (written by the same writers) where Dean made the same sort of implication after Sammy ran away. Something like "and then Dad came home...."

But on the other hand, Sam sort of inferred they didn't have it so bad, compared to Max, because John turned to hunting....
11th-Oct-2011 07:26 am (UTC)
Yes yes... I was thinking about the "didn't have it so bad" line also. My feeling is that John wasn't abusive, as in belting his kids up when ever. But I think that possibly when he's really drunk (which may or may not have been that often) his temper gets the better of him. Maybe even just yelling a lot or something.

I admit I don't like thinking of John as abusive. Sure, they had it tough, but essentially I think John wanted the best for his boys and that means giving them the skills to protect themselves.

10th-Oct-2011 02:41 pm (UTC)
you seem to have always posted right when i've just woken up :P and with such interesting questions! I've been thinking about that young sam/john situation too, and it, uh, certainly sounds that way, doesn't it? I thought it didn't really come as a surprise because neglectful/violent john is so fanon it's almost canon (depending on who you read), but it was a bold move to really put it out there. if you look at the lines, no one really actually said anything, but the subtext hits heavy and hard both because we all know abused children never come out and say they're abused, and because of the way amy's mom smacked her around a few minutes later.

i'd like to play devil's advocate and say that there are extenuating circumstances, sam was moody all the time and probably never liked his dad in those days so he might not have needed the violence to 'not want to see him when he's drunk', and no one said anything explicitly but... they weren't overly explicit about sam and luci bunking together either, and I think we all got the picture :/ then again, I've never been all that fond of john, so i bet other people will be far more open minded than I am about jumping to conclusions. :)

I love all your questions! they keep the ep fresh and exciting
11th-Oct-2011 07:34 am (UTC)
you seem to have always posted right when i've just woken up

Which is when I'm sitting down with a drink and starting to get all thinky about my show.. :)

I know John has been discussed a lot around the place in the past. I've read a mix of fics that have him as a father doing his best but mostly being neglectful, sometimes abusive. It's not a far stretch really. In many ways the life style he inflicted on his boys is a form of abusive anyway. Putting them in the path of danger, leaving them alone for weeks at a time (I think this is canon now), treating them as soldiers etc. can't really be considered good parenting.

But yeah. I felt like the inference was that he did raise a hand when he was drunk. And I'm pretty sure Sam would have stood up to him... especially as he got older, so he may have suffered more than Dean (though I also imagine Dean would have been very protective of Sam, so Dean may well have been on the receiving end more). Dean seemed to always fear John.... it might have been one reason. Of course, I'm speculating and I actually don't like to think John beat his boys. "Temper" could purely mean yelling a lot.

The flashbacks are such good canon food. We now even have when Sam had is first kiss (I reckon that was definitely his first...)

11th-Oct-2011 02:40 pm (UTC)
oh, boys. and oh john - people really did keep defending him. after the striga episodes (more flashbacks! \o/ god, they're like gold) I guess I always assumed that he always kept Dean in line with the simple but effective 'do what I say or your brother will die'. that's manipulative as hell and obviously did a number on dean, but clearly worked. so yeah, I'm with you. I bet it came to blows with Sam much more often. (though as someone pointed out upthread, it sounded like Dean made at least one reference to being under John's hand in DSOTM)

and okay... I have a question for you, with all your thinky thoughts :) the cake? in 7x03? what exactly were we supposed to take from that? sam's losing it? distracted? after 28 years still hasn't figured out that pie is penultimate yumminess and safety to Dean and nothing else will compare? in an ep that was so 'them' otherwise, that part stuck out oddly for me, and I think I need more brain power weighing in before I make a final decision :P
11th-Oct-2011 03:57 pm (UTC)
Oh yay... I've had cake/pie thinky thoughts... (hee... of course)

During the first watch it was: pie wasn't available (it was a convenience store not a cafe after all) so Sam got the next best thing. It was better than not getting Dean anything at all.

But I've since decided that this might be a thing between them. A little bit of power play. This was Sam putting his big bro in his place. As little brothers do.

At the moment, Dean's incapacitated and relying on Sam to get what he needs. In some ways it's a reversal of Sam's position at the moment. (I see Sam quite reliant on Dean to keep him grounded in reality) So Sam's playing on the power he has over Dean in this situation. You wanted pie... well here's cake instead....hahahah) It's a reminder that these guys are brothers after all. It's the thing I love most about that scene.

I also love the way Dean played this back. He didn't eat the cake. It was his protest. I bet he wanted to (he loves food) but it was his way of ...well, being a big brother.

I think this had nothing to do with Sam being distracted. He was rather cocky when he made the comment about the pie. If they wanted to make this about Sam "losing it" Sam would have acted differently... confused maybe.

So nah.... this was a brother thing. S7 seems to be about Sam and Dean being brothers again (god I hope!) so I think it was a reference to a building of their relationship.

I've heard (only one reference) that Sam was being mean to Dean by doing this. My answer is.. yep. He is a little brother after all. Big brothers? Well, they punch their brothers when they steal their car.

I think all this thinkyness calls for a pie graph. (ha! *slaps knee*)

12th-Oct-2011 03:18 am (UTC)
you make some very good points. ::strokes her chinny chin chin:: i like that a lot better than the *shitty writing* sign that kept parading across the screen in neon lights.

I don't suppose you have any similar insights to make bobby's complete lack of empathy okay? i have my suspicions but... well... i better not say just yet :P

(also, lol, pie graphs :P)
12th-Oct-2011 10:01 am (UTC)
What?! Bad writing! O_o It's friggin amazing writing considering this is a thing. It's well observed. Pie is very important in the SPNverse. I think it represents more than just pie. (damnit! Are you going to meta on this, cause if not I will!... with added pie chart for fun..)

OOOhhhh... Bobby's lack of empathy. Um... I have actually wondered if that's really Bobby. I know it's completely out there but on his first appearance I thought something was up. But. I really don't think that's feasible.

If it's not deliberate (as in, he's not all he seems) then I think they've messed with Bobby's character a bit. I totally didn't get why he wouldn't be more upset about losing his house. He was completely blaze about that which is what made me think something was up. There were a lot of memories in that house and Bobby strikes me as someone who would have been mighty pissed off. And also? Where was he when it burnt down? He was heading toward his house so what happened I wonder...

The only thing I can think is that the Show wanted a "calming" voice around the two boys who are losing it. That he's there to see reason, to keep Dean in check. Bobby has been through a hell of a lot also so maybe this is his way of "losing" it. being somewhat out of character.

Of course, I'd love it if he wasn't all Bobby. But if he's not then who could he be? he's not a leviathan because he would just kill them. Hmmm... tricky one. What are our thoughts on that?

12th-Oct-2011 03:01 pm (UTC)
i take it back! like i said though, i didn't know what to make of the pie/cake debacle, so at first pass it just felt like something was missing. elveys_stuff has pointed out that maybe a few of the eh? moments were from jensen being so present in some of the scenes and still having to direct himself. it wasn't my first impression, but it's true that the two scenes that made me double take were ones he was in.

and speaking of which... i'm with you on bobby. he's gone. i did actually think he was a leviathan. it would be weird that he's not tipping anyone off, but these guys are supposed to be smarter, so i wouldn't put it past them to play the long con. (and if that's true... didn't we say that means the hosts die? but they can also shift, so i guess he could be hidden away somewhere) if dean hadn't left that voicemail i would say it's not too ooc for bobby to just brush it off, but there's just no way he would dismiss so much emoting from dean. then again, i suppose, if bobby's phone burned...

another option, though, is that of the 80 bajillion artifacts and cursed objects bobby had in his house, one of them had some baddie under lock and key that's now out and possessing bobby. it would make sense (given the kind of lockboxes john used to keep in his storage unit) and would add to the thematic dilemma of dean not being able to trust anyone around him being themselves. i'm thinking there has to be a breaking point coming up soon? right?

i wonder if anyone's meta'ed (look, now verbicized!) dean'n'pie. i know someone whose otp is dean/food :P there might be something on superwiki. it could certainly be done. oh, and think of the cheesy pie-y goodness if we could find some graphics person to overlay an actual pie on our pie charts ;)
13th-Oct-2011 01:19 am (UTC)
Hmmm... I can accept it might be Jensen's directing. Or the fact it was filmed out of sequence. Maybe they just didn't have the info for Jim (or Jensen) on exactly how that final scene of ep 2 was going to play out.

There were a few niggles continuity wise in the ep which I think were due to the above issues. (like.. really? A lily white cast? Surely that would have been mucky and written all over. But *shrugs* we can let that lie).

I would be surprised if there's not more to the Monster of the Season. They've given us Leviathans straight off so there must be something else that we don't know about. Sure, we don't know much about the "boss", but we could be in for a surprise down the track and it could be to do with Bobby. Hard to say... I think we need to be given more info. (I'll be keeping a close eye on Bobby in the mean time).

Hmm.. I'll check out Dean'n'pie and see if someone has given it some thought. Until the last episode I don't think there has been too much weight given to it, but since that one I think there's more that we can get.

I meta'ed on Dean and food a while back and my thinking would still be the same. That food was scarce growing up so food because a thing for adult Dean. I suspect pie is the same. It's a luxury that they never had as a child, so now it's become a "thing". It makes sense that Sam would play on that given the opportunity. Also.. pie represents "home made goodness". "Apple pie life" and all. (remember the scene with Bobby's wife making homemade pies). Whereas cake just doesn't do that.

There. Meta complete. *g*

Hee... I was thinking with a pie graph slicing it up to show how many times:

1. Pie has been mentioned (Something Wicked for example)
2. Dean has actually eaten pie (I can think of 2 or 3 moments?)
3. When Dean has been denied pie (2 at least).

If it hasn't been done, I think there's enough to write thinky thoughts on. ::koff:: I think we have all the ingredients. (double knee slap).
14th-Oct-2011 05:32 am (UTC)
(yeesh, been thinkin about this a bunch, finally have a chance to reply. and I'm sorry now for how long this will get because - holy word limits, batman!)

Okay, so, out of order shooting works for me too. I guess that's a hazard of episodic tv. and yeah, you're right, the big bad here has to be something worse than water-savvy shape shifters. which actually makes me wonder if there some other evil thing out there that actually has a beef with the leviathans, and that's what's in bobby. though i'm probably dangerously close to making up my own canon with that :P

also... I'm realizing I actually have very strong feelings on Dean's love affair with pie, mostly because I think it has already had weight given to it. at least for me, pie became a very emotionally charged thing in s5. originally, I always thought it was just sort of a sweet detail that made the character and his life more fleshed out, which was what I loved and appreciated so much about the show. But then, I saw Dark Side of the Moon and, for me, that changed everything.

That episode was amazing. Painful and heartbreaking, yes, but I don't think we've ever gotten such concentrated backstory and nuanced interaction in one episode. even in flashback eps. Granted, I firmly believe Zachariah was pulling the strings and dictating what memories they saw (because i refuse to buy that Sam's idea of heaven is someone else's thanksgiving) but it still brought to light so many truths... (::pulls out fingers like ticky boxes::)

Edited at 2011-10-14 05:34 am (UTC)
14th-Oct-2011 05:35 am (UTC)
-Sam ran away, without a word, carefree and unmindful of the hell his brother was going through.

-and apparently made a pretty decent temporary life with himself, complete with apartment and loyal dog

-we then get a pretty ominous reference to John's temper

-and Dean's sense of responsibility and guilt

-this all eventually leads to Sam saying he doesn't see family the same way Dean does (and holy shit, does that sting)

-John also apparently fought with mary, and deserted her and the boys when Sam was a baby (!!!)

-prompting Dean to say that John only thought she was 'perfect after she was dead'. ouch. i'll add a few points to the 'unhealthy obsession' theory then.

-and Dean, even at five years old and heartbroken, was the one in charge of cleaning up John's messes and keeping the family loyal to him. I believe the line was something like 'it's ok mom, dad still loves you. I do too. i'll never leave you.' he hugs her, as his adult self, but you can just image a wee!Dean latching on for dear life around her knees. and that's some grade A pathological heartbreak. poor Dean. I don't think there's anything scarier to a child than parents a) upset b) fighting c) missing, and in this case, all three at the same time. and Dean was still in charge of keeping everything together. this is pre-demon! (I swear, I could fanfic nothing but this episode for the rest of forever and be happy)

-mary then calls Dean her little angel, which we know she loves because Michael left false memories with her back when he fucked with her family the first time around, even if she's blissfully ignorant

-and all this sets the scene, because Mary then cradles her horrified son's face in her hands, very visibly schools her voice, and offers, 'how bout some pie?'

aaand... I melted. into a pile of goo, like the wicked witch of the west, only to be ressurected to rewatch that scene and melt again. I don't think i've ever wanted to watch another non Sam'n'Dean scene on loop, but I did for this one. that actress is so amazing here too, because you can just *hear* that this is something she's said plenty of times before. it sounds like her cure-all, the happy distraction she can offer her little boy when there's no way to really make it better, because you can hear how she's hoping it works. Sam's not anything more than a bundle of blankets at this point, so with John gone, mary's all he has. and she? she gives him pie. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that pie comes to represent what's good about his mother, safety and happiness and love and security, especially if this was a frequent occurrence. and those all things Dean so desperately needs no matter how old he is. in effect, he's self medicating, trying to give himself those things -- trying, even, to give himself what he can of his mother -- but inevitably failing. so after five seasons, in that one moment, the Dean/pie otp became unspeakably tragic to me. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_HiRUFgGS8)

and now i'm out of fingers to count on. i'm guessing Sam probably knows all this, on some level, though probably not consciously. he'd never withhold pie from Dean if he did, which is why I like your brotherly stubbornness theory so much. he'd fuck with him just for the sake of it, but he'd never deny Dean a safety blanket.

and now i'm thinking, maybe instead of that being separate from food, it was actually maybe the cause of it? if his obsession with food in general started after they went on the road, and pie was the one thing he still exalted from his life before? maybe he learned to enjoy whatever little things he could, the sweets and the burgers and whatnot, having learned to indulge his palette when he was feeling down. (oh god, i've just made Dean an emotional eater >.>) but it shows, especially in contrast to Sam, who longed for healthy food only because he wasn't getting it. because, as he said, he never got the crusts cut off his PB&J :/ and he definitely never had his mom giving him pie....

Edited at 2011-10-14 05:36 am (UTC)
14th-Oct-2011 05:37 am (UTC)
jeez. wow. I swear. you certainly bring out the opinions in me ;) it'd be interesting to see if the instances of pie line up with any trends of shitty situations (except, when are they not in one?) or something. what do you think? did it have any feel-better vibes for you before? certainly, nothing good ever comes after dean asks for pie. oh universe, you just like fucking with him, don't you?

also, I think if this turns into a real meta, it needs to have as many pie puns as possible. they'd be just a little, ahem, slice of what you've started here :D

(sorry for all the edits. word limits and html were against me)
14th-Oct-2011 03:15 pm (UTC)
YAY! Such awesome thinky thoughts..\o/

First up... not sure if you ever saw my Dean and Food meta. ( (hee... I even made a vid..). There is an interesting discussion after it - lots of peeps had good ideas. I do think Dean is an emotional eater. It came out of his lack of food growing up and his connection to home and mother.


WOW... I had forgotten how emotionally... *guh* that episode was. I found it extremely difficult to watch I admit. I was somewhat annoyed that all we got was Sam hurting Dean (one of my biggest *grrrrs* in the show). But I get it. That's what it was all about. I don't deny all those things happened but to only show those moments for Sam and then beat Dean over the head with them...*sob*. Of course, it was very important for the place Dean needed to be at in order for him to want to say yes, so I get that they had to do that.

Amazing ep. I agree. And I watched that vid you linked and that scene is so powerful and heart wrenching (I haven't watched that since I originally watched the ep.) It was great to see Sam really understand what Dean had given to his family. But wow... to have pie mentioned there. I think there is some awesome meta to be had here. I checked on Superwiki and they basically reference all pie moments. There is some meta about pie foreshadowing "bad" things but (as the writer says) there's plenty of bad moments without pie being mentioned.

This really struck me:

i'm guessing Sam probably knows all this, on some level, though probably not consciously, he'd never withhold pie from Dean if he did, which is why I like your brotherly stubbornness theory so much. he'd fuck with him just for the sake of it, but he'd never deny Dean a safety blanket.

I really didn't connect those two moments. From him witnessing his mother telling Dean she'd give him pie to him withholding pie deliberately from Dean in the latest ep..

Hmmm... I really, really can't buy that Sam deliberately hurt Dean by not getting him pie. (I never find Sam deliberately hurting Dean easy to to buy though). He DOES and HAS hurt him but not in a malicious, intentional way.

I'm thinking that this moment, like the end scene with Dean killing Amy, is open to interpretation. Depending on the viewer it could be read in many ways. My initial interpretation (and one I still believe) is that it was a brother power play. Pretty much as I've said above. But I suspect Sam has come under fire (I haven't read it myself though) for not getting Dean his pie. The last time Sam didn't get Dean pie Sam he was somewhat distracted (by Ruby I think..). Pie just wasn't on his list of priorities. Here I think that pie probably wasn't available so he got him the next best thing. OR... he decided to wind Dean up by getting him cake. (or maybe Sam doesn't realise just how important pie is to Dean? Nah... he even said something like "of course..") MAN... now I'm not sure! ACK! SHOW!!!

Oh... I think meta on this could be so much fun. IF this was to be done it would have to have a certain sense of lightness about it - with a touch of the serious of course. I think a combination of:

Pie facts - when it's seen or mentioned in the show (picspam & pie chart)
Meta - the reason pie is so important. (that scene in DSotM would be perfect to reference). Also referencing the latest ep opening it up for others to interpret. Perhaps looking at the various interpretations.

And indeed... pie puns are a must. We wouldn't want it to come across too crusty after all. :D

If you want to tackle this give me a PM and maybe we can nut this out some more. ;)


ETA: I would probably want to find more evidence of "brother power play" in the show. I'm sure there's lots of it, but that might help support the notion that it was more a brotherly love thing that Sam trying to withhold Dean's most favourite thing. (One I can think of is in Playthings when Dean tells the woman that Sam is into dolls. That's the kind of thing I'm thinking).

Edited at 2011-10-14 03:21 pm (UTC)
10th-Oct-2011 04:10 pm (UTC)
HAHA me again!
I'd never even considered his grace before. *ponders* Well I reckon it's gone poof. Suppose it depends if he's dead or not. All the dead angels are well, dead, grace and everything. The only grace I remember was with Anna and she ripped it out so she could fall and became human (I'm sure there was more to it but that was a while ago lol). So, did I miss Cas talking about his grace? Or somebody else talking about it?

And John *sigh* Despite the fics and things I'm probably edging on shouting, slamming shit around in motel rooms and perhaps losing it just that one time and smacking one of em before emo regret LOL What? Don't judge me :P
11th-Oct-2011 09:28 am (UTC)
Yay you again! :)

I don't think show has ever really mentioned it... as in where it has gone. Or even if he had it in the first place. I'm thinking it was purely a device for the character of Anna. They didn't need it for Cas, so it never got mentioned. Which, of course, bugs me 'cause now I can't make any assumptions about Cas not being dead because his grace isn't.

Argh. *head hurty*

And yes to John! That's actually how I see it. I mean, we could read it either way I suppose, but I would see John's temper a bit like Dean - hits out or smashes things when he's angry.

Hmmm.... extra thinky thought (free of charge..*g*) I wonder if that's why Dean punches Sam when he's angry with him. Learned behaviour from his dad...? Hmmm...

Thanks hun for dropping in hun! <33

10th-Oct-2011 04:17 pm (UTC)
At the moment, I'd think I'd guess that Castiel's grace is wherever Castiel is, since no one has mentioned it as being separate from him - although it's hard to know quite what Death meant by 'mutated angel'. :) Other than that, I think they've made it impossible to tell.

I'd have my doubts about heaven or just floating about in the ether - Castiel sounded truly contrite and desperate to make amends, so I think he'd have contacted Sam and Dean by now if he'd got away. They might not be very happy with him in heaven, but they'd also be leaderless - and down a significant number of angels since Castiel's massacre. I doubt they'd be organised enough at the moment to hold him. If he's dead, he'd be ... whatever happens to angels when they die. Personally, I suspect he's captive, lost or engaged in an internal battle of wills with the chief Leviathan - calling back to Sam and Lucifer.

As for John ... well, given previous statements about their childhood I doubt he was prone to hitting them on a regular basis, alcohol or no. But I also think that there was a strong parallel drawn between John and Amy's mother, so her behaviour was probably the clue. She did strike Amy - in a very extreme situation where she was very angry and very afraid, and I don't think we could rule out that John might have done the same. Sam and Dean do the same - when they're very frightened or distressed, they lash out with their fists; Dean did it in this episode. But mostly it was the way she talked to Amy: calling her stupid, making it clear that there wasn't a lot of trust between them, taking a very nasty tone with her. We do have some canon examples of John making quite cutting remarks when he was annoyed, and alcohol could exacerbate that behaviour. I think that was mostly what Sam was afraid of.
11th-Oct-2011 02:00 pm (UTC)
Hey hun..

Yeah... no word on Cas so no word where his grace is. If they've even considered that. Which I'm thinking they may not have done. Which means pondering it is probably a waste of time because if (well.. when) they bring Cas back he will just return. It won't be connected to his grace or anything. Though if he returns in Jimmy's body I will be curious how they justify that. Surely he is well and truly gone by now (which....er...no, because there can't be Cas without Misha me thinks...). So yeah....I'm thinking "too hard basket" for sure. :)

Sam and Dean do the same - when they're very frightened or distressed, they lash out with their fists; Dean did it in this episode

Yes yes. I just made that connection also. (whilst pondering the comment above in fact) Dean punched Sam because he was angry. Wow... I wonder if the writers made that connection. It seems so clear now. Make a Winchester angry (even if he's family) and you get hit. Dean has a temper that's for sure (he's hit Sam 3 times now..). Sam has one too but I think we've only really seen it when he wasn't quite Sam. (Asylum, S4 blood addicted!Sam, Soulless!Sam).

But yes. I think you've hit it one the head re that family dynamic. I think, once again, Show has given us hints rather than spelt it out.


10th-Oct-2011 08:00 pm (UTC)
Thinky thoughts ahoy!

I believe that an angel's grace is a smoosh of an open bonfire and a human soul you cannot function without it if you're an angel. It can be an burning fire or a flickering ember but so long as there is a 'speck' as Pesitlence put it then it is enough for the angel to exist, and quite possibly brings with it some nice little side benefits. That part is pure fanon on my part though.

Castiel probably expected to go into Purgatory WITH the souls when he was spewing them out, I certainly don't think he expected to recover or reawaken in that lab room. I honestly thought we were going to get Jimmy when Cas first sat up due to the mannerisms Misha used.

As for where it is right now and how it is 'assembled' be prepared to be dazzled by my epic skills of fanwankery! I think it's shattered for want of a better word and quite possibly still within the Leviathan!Jimmy wetsuit. That assertion is based upon the idea that a Leviathan doesn't possess so much as completely overwrite and manipulate a host. It overwrites the soul and alters the genetic make up of the victim to the black goo thing complete with dislocating jaw and funky teeth. That is how it gets the information necessary to 'become that person'. In Castiel's case it smothered down his grace and stretched it apart until it cracked into itty bitty bits that are still there and able to be reparied. Without a human soul to cling to, or one to feed off to coalease (?) it sort of floats around mixed in with the Leviathan.

John's temper ... well we know that Sam really didn't like or have much time for John growing up which means anything he says can't be taken as gospel IMO. There's bound to be some truth to it but his personal feelings will have no doubt muddied the waters making him an unreliable narrator.
12th-Oct-2011 12:43 am (UTC)
I honestly thought we were going to get Jimmy when Cas first sat up due to the mannerisms Misha used.

It would have been cool if we did get Jimmy back before the leviathans took over, though I'm still thinking that Jimmy is long gone. If not then I reckon he'd have to be now.

Hmmm... interesting theory re Cas' soul. So there could be bits of Cas in each leviathan. So maybe if they manage to kill one it will free up a bit of Cas....hmmmmm

I hadn't considered Sam as an unreliable narrator. But I can accept that. I certainly think John did have a temper, we saw some of it when he was around, but yeah... Sam may exaggerate due to his feelings about him.

Thanks for the thinky. :)

11th-Oct-2011 08:46 am (UTC)
Having read the other replies, I have to say my thoughts are similar in some ways. I do believe that an angel's grace is very much like a human soul. Without it, the show deems them human, not angels. (Aka, Anna.)

There's been no mention specifically of Castiel's grace since about S5, but I'm guessing it's still there, as when he had that brief moment of lucidity after he healed himself back up from expelling the souls back to purgatory in 7.02, he apologised to Dean and said he'd try to make ammends. That was the real Cas talking, fully himself for a tiny moment before the Levithians popped up to the front, and either he had just healed himself via his grace or yet again a higher power stepped in. Either way I'm inclined to believe that when he pops back up, he'll still have it until/unless it's visibly ripped away.
12th-Oct-2011 01:06 am (UTC)
Yeah, I've also thought their grace is their soul. The angelic version of one. That's why I'd like to know where it is. If it was somewhere in particular it could be retrieved.

I think (like the icon says) we need to see the wing shot before I believe he is gone for good... ;)

11th-Oct-2011 04:44 pm (UTC)
Interesting thoughts on Cas!

And man, yeah, I was also wondering about the reference to John's temper. Still, I dunno. There are hints for physical abuse also as against it all throughout the show, but I can't settle on how I read it.
12th-Oct-2011 01:28 pm (UTC)
Yeah. I think Show likes to give us hints and lets up fill in the gaps. And er.... we are all pretty good at that! :D
12th-Oct-2011 04:46 am (UTC)
Based on things Sam has said in the past, and the instance in "Something Wicked" and the way Dean trails off when he's talking about Sam going missing for weeks in "Dark Side of the Moon" (and other times) I fully believe John had a problem with lashing out at the boys.

Interestingly enough, although I write fic I rarely ever read it. So I don't base my decision on fanon. There's just something about how they've portrayed John -- and without me getting too personal here -- but I see it and recognize it.

He's a man who you could probably say has lost his mind with grief over the death of his wife and has two young kids with him as he goes on his mission of revenge. I can see him trying to dull his pain with alcohol, as Dean does, and losing control of himself when doing so.

I've always gotten the impression that John was never all there after Mary died, that he was obsessed with hunting and thinking only of revenge when instead he had two boys that needed a father to be there and to have a normal life. I can see him being standoffish and angry at them for no reason. I can see him drinking heavily to help him sleep, to help him cope, to help him keep going. I see him easily lashing out when he's stressed or angry.

By now I don't think it's fanon to assume there were times John took his frustration and anger out on the boys.
12th-Oct-2011 01:35 pm (UTC)
Yeah... good points. I think there are probably enough references to suggest that he may have lashed out in temper. We see it in Dean as well. Both the drinking and the temper.

I would like to think it wasn't often, just on the rare moments when he lost it. The DSotM reference was particularly poignant though.

There's no doubt the boys had it tough. :(
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