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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
I get it now! 
20th-Nov-2011 09:58 pm
Becc_j Art
Remember I was asking a while back what was up with Bobby?

It really bothered me that Bobby didn't react more strongly to his house burning down. That he was cool as a cucumber, ready to move on. It seemed robotic, not emotional enough. (Bad writing even). But now, after saying this to Dean:

You're not a person and Now, you get a case of the Anne Sextons, something's gonna come up behind you and rip your fool head off.

It makes more sense. Bobby was acting like the "not person" he was talking to Dean about. The one Dean needs to become.

I don't think this is about not being humane. Or human. It's just about acknowledging that as a hunter you don't have the luxury of reacting like a "normal" person. You can't think too hard about what it all means. You can't let yourself drown in the horror and sadness of it all. You don't get to have hopes and dreams like a normal person because it just doesn't work like that.

Sam seems to have worked that out. (I actually think he worked that out quite a while ago. Before hell even). Dean probably should know it but I think he's still holding onto an ideal. A belief that it can actually all be over one day. That the baddies will just stop coming. I think he probably still holds that it ends either "bloody or sad" but I think he probably feels that it doesn't have to. They've survived the worst. Surely it can just stop now.

It's remarkably sad. Neither boys are "people". Normal people don't survive hell, don't survive the losses these boys have. They don't know about the monsters out there. Normal people make plans for the future. Ones that aren't just about surviving day to day (and yes, yes... I am WELL aware they aren't actually real people but I love that the show treats them as though they are. They are heroes with all those real people flaws that make them so interesting).

Something else I've changed my mind about. If Bobby is dead I thought it might be the tipping point for Dean - the thing that triggers his meltdown (it feels like that's where we're heading). But Bobby also said to Dean:

Now, you find your reasons to get back in the game.

If Bobby is dead, Dean has just found his reasons. Revenge is a powerful motivator. It's the thing most hunters seem driven by. Up until now the leviathans have just been another big bad. If they've killed (or even seriously maimed) Bobby then they've just made it personal. Dean may well pull himself together BECAUSE he now has a reason to be back in the game.

Hmmmm... not sure. I can see that it could go a couple of different ways. Which ever way it goes I'm impressed that they've managed to find some new angst, some new character arcs for the boys this season.
20th-Nov-2011 02:16 pm (UTC)
I love your thoughts here! Well said! :D

20th-Nov-2011 02:31 pm (UTC)
Hee.. I hope they make some sense. I got all thinky tonight. :D

20th-Nov-2011 02:18 pm (UTC)
owww, I totally agree with you on this. Personally I think hope, that Edlund didn't kill Bobby but if</i> he's dead, Dean has every reason to be back in the game.
20th-Nov-2011 02:32 pm (UTC)
Yeah... it's interesting I think. Looking back Dean seems to always find reasons to get back into the game. Often he wants to throw it all in but something keep dragging him back.

We shall see. :)
20th-Nov-2011 02:29 pm (UTC)
I read somewhere else that Bobby didn't mean to say they're less than a regular person, or should expect less from their lives, but that they're more. That they're a different brand of people, BECAUSE they don't let all of that shit they're wading through kick them down. That they know it ends bloody or sad or likely both, and still do what needs to be done to protect the happy bubble of everyone else. And yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense to me, because I can't see Bobby demanding of Dean to give a part of him up; he's trying to remind him of what kind of person he has to be to even bother doing that job, keep fighting.

And I can't see Dean firing up and flinging himself into the fight if they loose Bobby. He's so down, and I don't think he'd be able to gather the momentum that would take. No, if Bobby dies, Dean's going to loose his footing.
20th-Nov-2011 02:40 pm (UTC)
*nods* I never got the sense that it was about becoming less of a person. Neither about shedding everything that makes them humane or good people. Just that as you said. They are different. They aren't normal. I actually really love that turn of phrase though - "not a person". He could have said "you're not a normal person" - but to reduce it to just "person" speaks more to me.

I was totally riding the "Dean will totally shut down if Bobby is dead" car. And he well might. I would kinda love to see that. I can imagine him just saying "no. Not gonna hunt any more". Then he'd have to witness what happens while he sits and does nothing. OR he has renewed focus and realises it's going to end bloody or sad no matter what he does so he better just suck it up and get out there.

I can't imagine any choice will be a "happy" choice. The show revolves around hunts so he'll have to find a way to get back into it somehow.

The next ep will (hopefully!) give us those answers.

20th-Nov-2011 03:58 pm (UTC)
Yeah, it did have more impact. Dean knows he's not normal, but using person? NGH.

Oh man, yeah, but with all the hints they've been laying about Dean being at the end of his rope? I really hope they won't wrap it up like that. And the Leviathans are already personal, they offed Cas, so. I don't think I would buy into Dean suddenly ponying up and getting bent on revenge, I just can't see that he's got the energy left to do that, is my point.
20th-Nov-2011 10:52 pm (UTC)
ACK! Yes! Of course it was already personal! /o\

And I think you're right. I can't see Dean drumming up the energy for revenge at the moment. If he didn't have it after Cas then he won't have it after Bobby. In fact... it will most likely be the nail. *wibble*

Thanks hun!
20th-Nov-2011 02:51 pm (UTC)
As soon as I stopped yelling noooooo at the screen, I thought, ok, Dean, there's your reason. I don't know if he'll be able to pull it together though. I think even though it was harsh how Bobby approached the talk with Dean, Dean's more likely to respond to that than a touchy, feely, feelings discussion. He's lucky he got Dean to listen to even that.
20th-Nov-2011 10:55 pm (UTC)
Oh yes. Dean listens to gruff Bobby laying it down as he sees it. He did a similar thing when Sam was drink demon blood. "Family is supposed to hurt" Or some such thing.

I wonder how much Dean will remember of that after this turn of events. I think he will (should) have a damn hard time holding it together.
20th-Nov-2011 03:06 pm (UTC)
Nicely put. :)

I'm not sure I buy the idea of Dean as revenge-driven, though. It's never really worked long-term motivation for him. He growls about it and makes the occasional declaration ... but it doesn't seem to hold in his mind for very long.

Hunting down the yellow-eyed demon? Well, yes. Obviously. They'll get to it one of these days - oh, look, a case! Lilith? Well, not much point now he's alive again, is there? Samuel? Well, if he sees him, sure. But he's not going to go looking ...

One of the most important things Sam learnt was that focusing on revenge was more hurtful than helpful - there was always another enemy to take out, always someone else who'd ruined their lives. Once he switched from that to 'making amends' and on from there to simply 'doing good' when there were no more amends to make, he pulled himself together in a hurry and has been coping very well ever since.

Dean used to have that sense of purpose, in the early days - he was the one with the long-term idea of helping people through hunting, where Sam had a series of concrete goals - but it was based on an overly simple view of the world. He needs to find a sense of the world being worth saving as it is, rather than as he wanted it to be. If he does try out revenge, I think it'll be a blind alley he'll have to come out of. :)
21st-Nov-2011 01:43 pm (UTC)
Oh damn yes. Well put!

I think I might well agree with you here. Sam's been the one bent on revenge (Dad, Jess, Dean) whereas Dean has always seen the hunt as the big picture of helping people. A job that he was born to and melded to.

It seems that Dean is becoming more and more disillusioned with the hunt (as Sam was as a teen) and Sam seems more connected to it (as Dean was as a teen). It's often been mused that they are role reversing as the show goes on. Maybe this is another step in that direction.

It will be interesting to see exactly what happens now. Dean drew Sam back into the hunt with a meaningful goal so maybe it's Sam's turn to bring Dean into the with some a goal that makes sense to Dean. I mean,he has to be brought into the hunt some how. Unless the show takes a turn and it's no longer a MoTW show. I see Sam as being instrumental in helping Dean find his feet. Especially with the effort they have gone to to make us see that Sam is all right.

In some ways it would be a shame if they fall back into revenge as a motivator, especially as we have been there. Maybe they'll play on it - they'll see that's it can't be about revenge as that never ends well.

Thanks hun. Your thinky always makes me extra thinky... <33
20th-Nov-2011 05:27 pm (UTC)
I also think that he's so puzzled and confused over Sam being 'fine' though I think it's wishful thinking on his part, something he's denying deep down since everything is going rather smoothly. It's a typical Dean coping mechanism, if everything appears fine on the outside then he shouldn't dwell on reasons why everything is NOT fine.

I think Dean's normal walls and coping mechanism aren't really working well, he's starting to over think things which is really causing him to be burnt out so to say from this life, the hunt, why everything apparently hates them etc.

It's sad and also dangerous because sooner or later he's going to lax and not 'care' or deny it until it bites him in the ass.
21st-Nov-2011 01:49 pm (UTC)
Ahhh.... I have to say I didn't consider Dean being confused over Sam being fine. But yes... that could certainly explain some stuff. I'm thinking that Dean just doesn't know what to do when Sam doesn't need to be looked after. Even though he constantly wants Sam to be fine, he rarely is. So now that he really appears to be Dean is at a loss. As per the end of the last episode - how does stop caring for Sam and start caring for himself.

Dean's coping mechanisms are certainly failing him. He's just not holding up under the strain is he? *pets him*

And yeah.. it could be very dangerous and I have to say I'd love to see that happen. His lack of care or desire to hunt might put himself or Sam in harm's way and he'll have to somehow pay for it.

Thanks for your thoughts hun.
20th-Nov-2011 11:53 pm (UTC)
I wonder if the reason Sam has already come to terms with it and Dean hasn't is that Sam has already had to give up his dream? They make it abundantly clear in the beginning that what he really wants is a normal life, which means girl + fence + 2.5 kids. And honestly, I think that's all the other hunters wanted too, before they actually became hunters. Sam for sure, but also Bobby, and John. They were all forced into this life brutally, violently, and had to give up everything they knew and wanted to become the hunters they were/are. But Dean's dream (okay, main goal) was to be a hunter, make his dad proud, and keep his little brother close. And sure, he's got daddy issues up the wazoo, but really he's actually managed that. He's still a hunter, and despite Heaven and Hell alike he and Sam are still breathing the same air. He's the only one on the playing field who hasn't had to give up everything he wanted to get where he is today.

I wonder if that will ever set him apart from Sam. Like, if once they both come to terms with it, they'll approach is differently. I guess it already has, in the way that Sam has become more single-mindedly about the hunt since ~s4 and Dean has shown more interest in keeping people out of it. (I'm thinking Jump the Shark here...) but it'll be interesting to see if that difference gets any focus in the upcoming storylines.

Anyway, I'm kind of disappointed Bobby wasn't possessed. I guess they just played the 'your BFF is now the Big Bad' card and couldn't do it again so soon.... or do another 6 episode run of 'what's not right about this picture?' I just, I dunno, a)still think that was sorta lazy writing and b) would rather have Bobby compromised than gone. I dunno if you've ever checked out the Encyclopedia of Weirdness fanart, but after the very last shot of Bobby's poor hat I thought of this one: http://encycl-of-weird.livejournal.com/3403.html and imagined one last hat on the wall :'( Someone needs to pay tribute to that hat.
20th-Nov-2011 11:54 pm (UTC)
Oh, and can I just say that 'other people have it worse than me' Sam is one of my new favorites? Grandmas should call him precious and pinch his cheeks 24/7
21st-Nov-2011 02:08 pm (UTC)
Forget the grandmas! I'LL pinch his cheeks 24/7!!
21st-Nov-2011 02:07 pm (UTC)
Oh yes! Yes.... awesome observation. Out of them all (John, Sam, Bobby..) Dean didn't get into the hunt because he was driven to. Sure, his mom died but he was riding on John's need for revenge rather than purely his own. John, Sam and Bobby had given up their dreams and realised that there was no hope for them to be realised. But Dean has actually lived that other life (for the first time) so he knows what it means to have that. It was probably something he never even realised he wanted until he had a year of living it.

He glimpsed it in "What is.." but it was more an ideal or dream rather than a reality.

Argh... it's so complicated. But I think there is consistency here. Dean needs to make sense of it all. Find himself, his purpose, his motivation.

I really hope they do something interesting with it.

And yeah, I was really thinking something was happening with Bobby. I wonder if they had even considered that Bobby was one day going to say "you're not a person". I doubt it, but for me it gives me a reason why Bobby acted so unemotionally to his house burning down.

And thanks for that awesome link! Whaaa... one last hat. :((((

Oh Bobby!
22nd-Nov-2011 03:07 am (UTC)
The What Is.. verse is so interesting in this. Because Dean gave up the perfect life just because his Sammy didn't love him back. (Honestly, I've always thought a better excuse was that the *real* Sam was back in the actual universe and would have been left grieving something awful, but whatever. Either way, Dean came back.) Anyway, it's not like we didn't know his priorities before, but they way they chose to highlight that reasoning really made it clear for all time. Sammy = Happiness. That is all.

But also, you're right, he had that 'perfect' life with Lisa and Ben, and he gave that up for Sam too. Sure, Sam was being a dick at the time, what with the 'you can't have both' he was spoutin' loud and proud, but still. To me that says, if given the choice, he wouldn't take it any other way. I'd bet that if John or Bobby or Sam could magic-voodoo-hoodoo their lives back to before they knew about demons with no consequences, they would. Dean? I'm really not so sure. So yeah, definite consistency. And it raises so many interesting issues about the drug-like quality of codependence. The hit you'd give up a Happily Ever After for. I'd love to read a really well thought out psychoanalysis of how their codependence shaped their lives. And the apocalypse. And the world.

Man. /ramble

Anyway, if you haven't yet you should read the rest of the Encyclopedia of Weirdness. The whole thing is adorable. (though I do think it's easier read of DeviantArt: http://kentameadowwolf.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d162z9d)

R.I.P. Bobby's hat.
22nd-Nov-2011 05:32 am (UTC)
I'd love to read a really well thought out psychoanalysis of how their codependence shaped their lives.

Oh yes. Wouldn't that be interesting. There really is so much to examine there. The whole of the series has been shaped around their need for each other. Dean seems to wear his need on his sleeve. Sam is less overt but nonetheless there.

I also find it interesting to think that everything that has happened to them (S3 +) is down to Dean's deal. Him not allowing Sam to die. It's all on him (no wonder he carries a lot of guilt around).

Even before that... coming to get Sam from Stanford.

(Surely someone has already written this?!) I touched on it briefly in my return to me picspam and meta, but not the psychoanalysis of how it has shaped their lives. More how they can't stay separated.

Thanks for that link. I shall enjoy reading that. :DD
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