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just enough to make us dangerous
7.14 Review 
19th-Feb-2012 01:44 pm
Becc_j Art
A little delayed due to RL getting in the way. (damn you RL!)



Well...... WOW. That was pretty damn intense. Shocking in some parts and.....a touch meh in others. But, overall, I really enjoyed. It was a meaty episode full of edge of your seat moments.


Loved:

Mark Pellegrino. He, hands down, stole the show. He is absolutely WONDERFUL as Lucifer. SO very, very creepy. More on that later (because that "creepy" needs fleshing out a bit more), but I was THRILLED to see him back again.

SAMMMY!!!! OMFG.... I just. THANK YOU SHOW! I really wasn't expecting an episode so soon on Sam's hallucinations. I thought maybe towards the end of the season, so to have them exploring this now is so exciting.

The mirroring between Jeffery and Sam. I know they do this all the time with their monsters of the week (comparing them to something going on with the boys) but this was a great use of that device. When Dean said "He was a psychopath, Sam. That's what they do all the time is act. Act like they're normal. Act like they're not balls to the wall crazy." I nearly bawled. OH SAM! :((((((((((((

I also loved the serial killer angle and that a demon had identified Jeffery as a future demon. Destined for hell. That was cool.

Lucifer's tongue! Did you see that?! YIKES!

The actor playing Jeffrey (Russell Sams). I really enjoyed his performance. Very convincing.

The final "Good Morning, Vietnam". That. Oh god. And the way Sam jumped when he yelled it. The thought of Sam waking up each morning to Lucifer. Not to mention what might happen in his dreams. *sobs*

The motel room!! \o/ (see below)

The overall tension of the episode. Mostly brought about by Lu stalking Sam. Ack!


Liked:

The flashback. It was gutsy to do that because there's no way they could get the guys to look like they did back then. So we really just had to take it at face value. I know the SPN timeline is all messed up, but I'm assuming it's S3 as they trying to find Lilith to prevent Dean going to hell (?). The amulet and the ring were a nice touch.

Seeing demons again. I've really enjoyed the break from the demon story line, but it was like putting on comfy shoes to see them back again. It felt familiar and as the season isn't dominated by them I liked the revisit. I find the inconsistency with how they handle demon inconsistent though and it often distracts me. Like... why could Meg's demon run around in a broken vessel and not feel anything and yet when the boys tortured the demon they punched him and broke his fingers. (I get that that was for effect, but I find stuff like that distracting. Why not just stick to the knife and holy water?). I get that it was for effect - having the boys so brutal was shocking, but breaking fingers?

I have mixed feelings about the torture. I really liked that they allowed the characters to go there. We know Sam and Dean are tough and sometimes have to be brutal to get results, but it was really hard to watch. It's interesting thought that they seemed to have justified this treatment on an "innocent", when he turned out to be not so innocent after all.

Meh:

The resolution. I was really invested throughout the ep and then at the end I felt a little let down (not the Samnlucifer bit). I can't pinpoint exactly why. I think I get a little frustrated when the boys get caught and then have to find reasons why the baddy doesn't just kill them. Jeffery only needed Dean's blood so he could have easily killed Dean and be done with it. It could be argued that the demon wanted him (I LOVE it when demons get excited that they have a Winchester), but even dead the demon could have had his soul. I know they CAN'T kill them - but I love it when they give us really good reasons why not. Also? Dean clearly needed to be in chains... *g*

Speaking of Dean tied up (::koff:: yes... I even like it when Dean gets tied up!) but it would have been really interesting (imo) if Jeffery exacted some pay back by inflicting (or attempted to inflict) some torture on Dean. The threat was kinda there, but it never happened. It's not because I wanted to see Dean tortured (though.. ahem..) but because it would have been an interesting juxtaposition to the opening scene. A reversal of roles.

And why, when one of the boys bursts in to rescue the other they mess up the timing so they end up being flung into a wall, or hurt or stopped somehow. Yeah.. I know about tension and stuff, but it's another one of those little things that bug me.

But that's it for *meh* really. Other than there being a lot of chatting... (I ADORED Dean's "I can't believe this guy is talking so much" face. Hee.... I was thinking the same thing. *G*)


Observations. (warning for possible triggers)

Creepiest line to date: "The rapier wit - the wittier rape - come on,"

*gulps* There's been too many references to what might have happened to Sam in the pit to be ignored now. "bunk buddy" "spooning"... it's as creepy as hell and truly adds an undercurrent of dark that is both delicious and disturbing (the delicious being that they are prepared to be that dark). I think it absolutely brings home how horrific it must have been for Sam (and Dean because I'm sure he didn't escape such treatment).

Though it might not just reference physical rape but mental rape also. Lucifer penetrating Sam's mind without consent.

If we accept that Jeffery was a mirror for Sam then that whole scene with Jeffrey dancing with his demon, "loving" his demon and inviting him in, reinforces what Sam is going through. Or perhaps... will go through. Jeffery wanted his demon, loved him, needed him. Could Sam be heading down the same path? Perhaps re-visiting one he went down in hell?

Sam acknowledged Lucifer because he needed him. Wanted his help (yay... to save his big brother. <33). It will be very interesting to see what they do with this. If Sam accepts Lucifer, starts talking to him, listening to him, letting him help find answers then etc then.....wow... that would be a fascinating development. I wonder if Sam would try and keep that from Dean? I suspect he might try for a while, but I think Dean would start to see the cracks. Which then leads to what state that would leave Dean in. I think the last straw for Dean will be something (like this) happening to Sam.


I can only think that the victims being "fat" was a shout out to Silence of the Lambs. Linking the serial killer's "type". Or was deliberately offensive to make us hate Lucifer. It puzzles me why they had to be do derogatory. Because if Lu was saying that then it suggests that Sam was thinking that.

Which brings me to this...


A question

I have to admit I am confused about how this hallucination works. He's in Sam's head, which suggests that Sam is somehow controlling what Lucifer is saying and doing. It's Sam's mind after all. But, I find that really hard to hold on to. Especially when we get shots of Lucifer that Sam doesn't see. Like the tongue poking, the "he said Shut Up to me". The camera stays on Lu while Sam walks off. Of course, we could be seeing what Sam imagines Lu is doing, but... damn. It's complicated.

What I'm wondering is... could some part of Lu actually be inside Sam's brain? Somehow independent of Sam's control? Maybe part of Lu's pysche attached itself to Sam's mind and he works independently to Sam. Which makes more sense to me than Sam subliminally making Lu say and do the things he's doing.

By Sam acknowledging him it opened up another pathway in Sam's brain - the one that prevents Sam using his trick to be rid of him.

It might also mean that Lu might be able to be exorcised. *shrugs* I dunno.


To end I just have to squee about the floor of that motel. *adores*



To me, it looks like a jigsaw. Or the notion of pieces slotting together. It's completely wacky. And totally awesome.




I love the style and the colours. Very 70s. I also love it when we get shots of the boys sleeping. This scene reminded me of Dead Man's Blood when John was listening to the radio and woke his boys.


Overall, a solid ep. And what a cliff hanger. I CAN NOT WAIT to see where they go next (but please don't tell me!). We have to wait until March 16th to find out. WHAT THE HELL!!?! (Will definitely need lots of fic to see me through...)
xx
Comments 
19th-Feb-2012 06:48 am (UTC)
Gah. Poor Sam. Just - eek.

If we accept that Jeffery was a mirror for Sam then that whole scene with Jeffrey dancing with his demon, "loving" his demon and inviting him in, reinforces what Sam is going through. Or perhaps... will go through. Jeffery wanted his demon, loved him, needed him. Could Sam be heading down the same path? Perhaps re-visiting one he went down in hell?

I think the idea is that for both of them it was about power. Jeffrey felt powerless until the demon taught him he could be powerful by hurting people - but partnered with the demon he had more power to hurt than he could as an ordinary serial killer. He could still harm and kill, but he didn't quite have the demon's capacity to destroy. And Sam - he's smart. But right now he's not quite as smart as he has been, because so much of his attention is devoted to ignoring Lucifer. He's trying to block out hell, but he's losing a lot of other stuff, stuff he wants, as well. Up till now, that's been okay: he can think well enough to work. But this time, with the pressure on, it wasn't. Lucifer offers him the power of unencumbered thought - if he stops blocking things out, the answers are all there. But like the demon is only using Jeffrey to gain a new recruit and capitalises on his devotion to escape hell, Lucifer's relatively helpful attitude is just a means to an end, so Sam, like Jeffrey, dances with the devil and ends up in his power. :)

I wonder if Sam would try and keep that from Dean? I suspect he might try for a while, but I think Dean would start to see the cracks. Which then leads to what state that would leave Dean in. I think the last straw for Dean will be something (like this) happening to Sam.

Is screaming 'Wake your brother up and tell him about this RIGHT NOW!' an appropriate response to this episode? Perhaps a tad melodramatic? :)

That's the tragedy of their situation. Dean needs Sam to stay alive. Sam needs Dean to stay sane. But Sam needs Lucifer to save Dean ... so they're spectacularly screwed, and this is what Dean has feared all along.
19th-Feb-2012 09:27 am (UTC)
so Sam, like Jeffrey, dances with the devil and ends up in his power

Yes yes. The power idea is interesting and definitely one that makes sense. I suppose that begs the question who is going it end up the more powerful. If this is going to be about power play then Sam is going to have his work cut out for him. Though, he has more experience with demons than Jeffery so hopefully Sam will end up winning the battle. Though I suspect there will be a lot more going on for Sam as he faces his demon.

Is screaming 'Wake your brother up and tell him about this RIGHT NOW!

I KNOW! I desperately want Dean to know and help Sam through it but I suspect that Sam will be keeping this one to himself as long as he can. That comment from Dean really seals it I think. Though Sam should know better by now. His stone number one is going to be very important is Sam wants to hang on to his sanity.

so they're spectacularly screwed, and this is what Dean has feared all along.

Yep. That about sums it up. (yay show!)

<333
19th-Feb-2012 06:56 am (UTC)
This episode was disturbing (yet so meta juicy)! I also found the details regarding physical torture on the demon to be confusing. The way I justified it in my head was that perhaps they were counting on the fact that some demons get attached to their hosts and don't want their "meat suits" to be harmed. I thought I recalled a demon in the past talking about not harming their host, but now I can't remember the specific instance. Doh.

But, yeah, is it still torture when there aren't issues of consent? Is there such a thing as victim-sanctioned torture?

"The rapier wit - the wittier rape - come on,"

I find it interesting that the writers go to such obvious lengths to reiterate this particular horror. I can't help but think they think rape is the worst torture these characters could suffer being strapping white (alpha) males (not that it wouldn't be based on the issue of "control" or "loss of control" alone--something that's always been a sticking point with Sam).

why, when one of the boys bursts in to rescue the other they mess up the timing so they end up being flung into a wall, or hurt or stopped somehow.

Ha, I know, right? It would've been more logical (but less dramatic) if Sam just shot him from afar while sneaking up on him. Show is a drama queen!

that whole scene with Jeffrey dancing with his demon, "loving" his demon and inviting him in, reinforces what Sam is going through.

Nice parallel. Talk about a raging case of Stockholm Syndrome. But maybe ... erm ... Sam needs to come to terms with (i.e. embrace) what Lucifer did to him in order to get him out of his head instead of fighting/ignoring him, the counterpoint to Sam killing his fractured other selves?
19th-Feb-2012 10:38 am (UTC)
The way I justified it in my head was that perhaps they were counting on the fact that some demons get attached to their hosts and don't want their "meat suits" to be harmed.

Ooh yeah. I can buy that. In fact they do mention that in this episode - the demon returning to a certain host because they like them.. or something.


The control issue is certainly a massive one for Sam. And it is said that rape is about control.


Show is a drama queen!

HA!! Yes... I love that. :DD


Talk about a raging case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Yes indeed.

Sam needs to come to terms with (i.e. embrace) what Lucifer did to him in order to get him out of his head instead of fighting/ignoring him, the counterpoint to Sam killing his fractured other selves?

Hmmm.. yes. That's quite interesting. It might well be about Sam accepting what happened rather than trying to ignore it. The notion of "embracing" (like in that dance..) could be more about accepting and bringing the three Sams together. Curious.

Excited to see where they will take this.

<3


19th-Feb-2012 07:30 am (UTC)
I loved the fact that they took a look at what happens to someone *after* they've been a demon's vessel. I know that in the end Jeffrey turned out not to be the innocent that he was initially portrayed as, but still, it's something I've wondered about.

As for Sam and Lucifer: I was reminding myself all the way through that this *isn't* Lucifer in Sam's head, this is all *Sam*. Which makes it way more creepy and painful, because all of this is coming out of Sam's brain, Sam's damaged psyche, which is chilling. Did the time in the cage put this into Sam's mind, or was it - or the potential for it - always part of Sam?
19th-Feb-2012 10:42 am (UTC)
I loved the fact that they took a look at what happens to someone *after* they've been a demon's vessel.

Yeah. That was pretty cool. I totally imagine someone becoming a basket case after experiencing something like that. It's also interesting that Jeffery was part way there to start with.


I find it so hard to imagine that this is actually Sam. I mean... I suppose it has to be. It's probably the tortured Sam - the one we saw completely destroyed. I suppose that Sam could be capable of thinking anything. *shudders* it's pretty deep and totally scary. (and damn interesting!)

xx
19th-Feb-2012 10:29 am (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts. I was also a bit horrified by the rapier wit line, so I wrote a bit about it in Spn_heavy_meta. (Don't know how to link in a comment, sorry.)Overall, something of a return to form, but really - can it get any darker? At least we have a month or so to prepare ourselves.
19th-Feb-2012 10:57 am (UTC)
Overall, something of a return to form, but really - can it get any darker?

It really had an S4 feel about it didn't it? That dark, undercurrent of threat and nastiness.

Oooh.. will pop over and check out your post. :)

19th-Feb-2012 10:38 am (UTC)
The floor was a new variable wasn't it? Floorplan! Oh god I can't stop now....

I made the 4 years ago into season 4? Factor in the year Dean was with Lisa - seemed they were on the hunt for Lillith to stop the seals breaking and the apocalypse not Dean's deal - season 4 was a particularly ugly and brutal year, but I agree about how could so much physical damage harm the demon, but then I've been wondering about that since Dean tortured Alistair which would have been around the same time as this?

There were some amazing creepy overtones to many of the set pieces, but like you I felt the last fight scene was way out of balance - adventures in babysitting had the same problem and I don't know exactly why, something about the timing and approach gives a strange time lag when nothing's really going on, suddenly Dean is free (and really a bit of rope around the back of a chair and I'm supposed to believe that controls Dean Winchester? - CHAINS - yes, you called it - hehe) but then he suddenly finds his gun and suddenly there's a devil's trap on the ceiling. Hm.

I did especially like the fact that the human they'd saved was actually worse than the demon they vanquished, nice turn of events as hosts are usually treated as innocent victims - well they were, lately it's been thought of just before they slaughter the host body along with the demon - that's always been a bug, where to draw the line and one Sam argued often with Dean, that he was saving people and killing demons and the knife was killing both. So this one put a new twist on that.

Lucifer and Sam - like you, so far I'm confused. Is he there or is he a construct of Sam's tortured psyche, but maybe Lucifer is like other gods and monsters, once you believe then that makes them real. I thought it very fitting that it took Lucifer telling Sam that Dean was probably dead or in serious trouble for Sam to speak to him, but I think perhaps this has allowed Lucifer to manifest into an entity outside of Sam's control. It's been a great season in the way they've stripped them of nearly everyone to hone in the fact that they do, not only, not have anyone but each other, but the only thing keeping each of them alive is the other, Sam needs Dean to build his sanity on and Dean needs Sam as a living breathing final bullet.

ACK!!! March 16th?? You're kidding me! Not gonna make it...

Edited at 2012-02-19 12:19 pm (UTC)
19th-Feb-2012 11:06 am (UTC)
Hey, great, I've been waiting for this entry :-).

Did you notice Dean was actually sleeping under the cover? Probably not fully dressed? And still no alcohol? It's as always- one brother, in this case Dean, seems to get better, only to have the other, Sam, spiralling downwards.

I wonder how Dean could not notice Sam rubbing his hand on various occasions. Doesn't he want to notice, or did he really not because he is too exhausted himself? So if Sam has now to deal with an all present Lucifer, I wonder if Dean is going to notice... maybe if he walks in on Sam talking to himself (seemingly).

I think that there is still a part of Lucifer in Sam's mind. I don't believe Sam imagines it all- why should he... But to have him make a pact with the devil once again- Jeez, do these boys never ever learn?! He did it for Dean, yes, but then they always do the wrong things for the right reasons. (And I cannot say that I wouldn't. I'm just observing their pattern.)

What I would like to ask you of all people: Do you think Dean is still "alive"? Famine said- and the demon confirmed it- that Dean is dead inside, that "it" has killed him (i.e. not being able to save the world). Demons lie, but Horsemen? I am torn. Sam is all that keeps Dean going, but that need not to be because Dean feels for his brother (which would mean that he's alive), but it could be that Dean is just functioning on autopilot. Sam as his duty is written in his genes- so yeah, I wonder what Dean's being alive/being dead means. If you care to think about that, too...? *looks hopeful in your assumed direction*
20th-Feb-2012 07:21 am (UTC)
I love the way the boys are both bundled up under covers. We mostly see them on top of beds don't we?

It's as always- one brother, in this case Dean, seems to get better, only to have the other, Sam, spiralling downwards.

Yeah... I love the turn about. We started with Sam, then they built up Dean's issues and now we see Sam's again. I'm assuming they will some how collide maybe.. (wheeee..)

I'm thinking Dean was too pre-occupied to notice Sam and I think Dean really wants to believe sam is ok so won't be looking for the signs (like he used to).

I think that there is still a part of Lucifer in Sam's mind.

Yeah... that's what I've been thinking. Though there's been some mixed reactions to that so I'm not sure the show has made it that clear.

Do you think Dean is still "alive"?

Hmmm.. that's an interesting question. I'm not sure he's been "alive" as in not just going through the motions in a long time. In fact, I'd even take it back as far as Croatoan when he tells Sam he's "tired". I think it started that. Well, after John died.

I don't see him as being dead inside though. Not like soulles, where he doesn't feel anything. I think he actually feels very deeply, but tries not to. I think the "dead inside" line is more about how he feels about himself. He has so little regard for himself that I think Famine saw that. Saw that he hungered after nothing because he wants nothing for himself. He wants good things for other people but he still suffers from very low self esteem. Still sees himself as a failure. So yeah... "dead" to himself maybe. But not "dead" for wanting things for Sam and others.

Hmmm... I hope that makes sense. :D




19th-Feb-2012 11:33 am (UTC)
First things first: Before I watched the episode last night I noticed that there was no reaction post from you, so I got really worried, thinking that it was a really horrible epsiode, or there was a devastating plot development or something. Phew - Yay for RL stuff! (I hope of the good kind.)

I have to admit I am confused about how this hallucination works. He's in Sam's head, which suggests that Sam is somehow controlling what Lucifer is saying and doing. (...) It's complicated.


This has never really occurred to me, to think of Lucifer as a real hallucination. I assumed that he has managed get into Sam's head and to manipulate it and make him see hallucinations (as the fire, people banging their heads against the table. But Lu himself is not a hallucination, but a presence in Sams mind. The way I imagine it is that Lu has access to the bit of Sam's mind that the devil walled up. And since Sam 'scratched' on it there is a little whole in wall, giving Lu access to Sam's conscious side of the brain. He put a plaster on, but in the last ep he scratched again, and sticky plaster came off.

I think Lu knowing things that Sam does not know, being derogatory and the camera angles all are in support of that.

With regard to mental illness, people who have hallucinations do not have control over them, but the overarching theme might be loosely based on a RL issue.

Jeffery wanted his demon, loved him, needed him. Could Sam be heading down the same path? Perhaps re-visiting one he went down in hell?

There were loads of parallels between Jeffery and Sam, but it was nicely done, not too in your face. There is one significant difference, though. The demon picked Jeffrey because he already had the predisposition to become a serial killer (e.g. making a list of women he wanted to kill) but he needed a bit of a nudge. Jeffrey is actively seeking out the demon to be taken over again. So far Sam's 'scratching' has always been for other purposes, e.g. remembering something, or trying to help Dean.

I have mixed feelings about the torture. I really liked that they allowed the characters to go there.

I 'liked' the torture exactly because I didn't like it, if that makes sense. It made me sit up a bit, notice it, and feel uncomfortable. The way it was set up was very careful, the boys did not enjoy the torture, it was done for the 'greater good' to save human lives, and they even got consent from the human vessel first. Part of this was to set up Jeffreys arc, but it also tied in to where Sam and particularly Dean are at in this season. It showed what toll the job takes out of them, even when they are successful. The inconsistency was okay for me. They needed Jeffrey to be really badly hurt and tortured, but not dead or unconscious. They could have sacrificed 2 minutes on to explain, or create a reason for why the boys did it, but they only have 45 minutes, so I am quite happy to just accept there was a reason and get on with it.

I am often puzzled about fandom's critical reaction to torture and rape in canon when at the same time in incest, torture and non-consensual sex play such a big part in fan-fic. This is not a criticism of either position, I just find it hard to conceptualize how people can hold those two positions at the same time.


20th-Feb-2012 10:25 am (UTC)
so I got really worried, thinking that it was a really horrible epsiode,

Hee... no. I had such a massively busy Saturday that I just didn't have time to write anything. Just managed to squeeze in watching it. :)

I like your take on how Sam sees Lucifer. It's pretty much how I imagine it as well. Like, somehow a part of Lu has latched in to Sam's mind. Sam has been blocking him out, until now. Though I'm not sure that this is how the show sees it...I'm really not sure. He feels quite separate to Sam, not something Sam is just imagining. Or something...

So far Sam's 'scratching' has always been for other purposes

Oh yes. I don't see Sam as inviting him in because he wants it. But we know how Sam feels about having power. He's said himself that he likes it. I think he really battles with liking it. Like he did with the demon blood. I wonder how much "power" having Lucifer on his side will have? If any? If he keeps it a secret (like the demon blood) we might end up with a Sam we had in S4. I hope not, as we've been there. Maybe his past experience will help him deal with this. Ack... who knows.

I am often puzzled about fandom's critical reaction to torture and rape in canon

Man...if this isn't a can of worms. It's really is interesting to me. I've had discussions in that past (privately) about justifying writing (and reading) rape fic. Being abhorred by it and the notion of it in real life, compared with reading/writing it as dark erotic fantasy.

Maybe because the show is bringing it to the forefront of Sam's torture we are confronted with it and it's probably quite unusual for TV shows to examine male rape. I'm not sure how common it is on TV. (not that common I suspect)

It's a tricky one. And as much as I'd love to open up a discussion on this (I've been thinking about it for a while now) I am hesitant to because I reckon it would be quite controversial.

Hmmmm.....
19th-Feb-2012 11:44 am (UTC)
CARAMBA MI CABEZA!!1111 :D

I loved Mark's performance in this one. I second - hands down. I miss this devil ♥ And the dynamic he and Sam have? Like, when Sam started asking him question? For a moment there I imagine a scene where the boys were trying to figure out a way to solve a problem and Sam was talking to Dean and Lucifer and he had to repeat Lucifer's words because Dean didn't actually see or hear him *___*

I also really really loved the interaction between the demon and his old vessel. I think this is the first time we actually saw this subject. It's been explained and discussed so many times in fics and all...Ben - hands down. And how they played it out? Like, a dance because the show is pg13-ish? What people actually feel when a demon leaves them, this hole inside of them that they desperately try to fill up and can't. I think that's why people go crazy - not because they experience something that supernatural or something, but because of the emptiness that this experience leaves behind. I'd love to see a flashback to Sam being possessed by Meg or something and how he felt and all, though I know there's no place in canon right now for this.

but I'm assuming it's S3 as they trying to find Lilith to prevent Dean going to hell (?). The amulet and the ring were a nice touch.
AND SAM'S SIDEBURNS! \o/ Or, more accurate - the lack of them :P

how horrific it must have been for Sam (and Dean because I'm sure he didn't escape such treatment).
I think this is exactly why they don't talk about it. They both have been there, and they both know it and I guess they just don't want to go back to that. As for throwing out those comments, like, bunk buddy and spooning - I think it's just a some sort of a shout out to the fandom and all, since I really can't imagine the boys talking about that kind of traumatizing experience.

If we accept that Jeffery was a mirror for Sam then that whole scene with Jeffrey dancing with his demon, "loving" his demon and inviting him in, reinforces what Sam is going through. Or perhaps... will go through. </i>
As I said above! Though I haven't thought about Sam and Lucifer in that context...HMMMMM...



20th-Feb-2012 10:58 am (UTC)
And the dynamic he and Sam have?

Yeah... that's really something isn't it? Ooooh... I just thought of something. Dean has his angel and now Sam has his demon. They are uneasy alliances and yet........ it makes me wonder how "friendly" Sam will get with Lucifer. And no, they won't go there but Sam might decide to stop fighting him and they become "friends"... ack... I don't know.

this hole inside of them that they desperately try to fill up and can't.

Oh yes. That's interesting. Especially for someone who really needs that hole filled. It's a fabulous notion. That being possessed fills a part of the victim like nothing else can. A bit like the demon blood did for Sam.

AND SAM'S SIDEBURNS!

Did they trim his side burns? \o/ I better have another look at that. Maybe that's why he's had such big side burns. So they could trim them down for this scene? totally cool...

I think this is exactly why they don't talk about it.

Oh yes. They would never talk about it. And never will. But I wonder how long the show will keep alluding to it. I feel like they are making more of a point of it than they did with Dean. Though the suggestion was always there.

Hmmmm. Such a thinky episode.

<33333

20th-Feb-2012 11:29 am (UTC)
Yeah. It's great to actually feel stuff when watching the show. I definitely felt uncomfortable but loved that they went there.

Sam and Lucifer have a disturbing, interesting dynamic - love it.

Agreed!
19th-Feb-2012 01:08 pm (UTC)
I loved this episode SO MUCH, omg. Lucifer is AMAAAZING.

One of the things re: Lucifer I find I have to remind myself of is that although (I believe) he is entirely a hallucination, he is created not just from Sam's own brain but from Sam's MEMORIES of what the real Lucifer was like. So the things Lucifer says and does are part of Sam but also part of what Sam remembers Lucifer being like, so it's a part of genuine Lucifer, too. If that makes sense!!
20th-Feb-2012 11:32 am (UTC)
Oh hi! :)

Lucifer is SO awesome. I bounced out of my seat when I saw Mark's name appear on the screen. :)

And yeah...my feeling is that the show is playing it exactly like that. It's an hallucination but made from Sam's memories - the ones buried behind the so called wall. It's scary to think he's dredging all those memories up to create this hallucination.

Can't wait to see what they do with it...
19th-Feb-2012 03:18 pm (UTC)
That was quite an episode! :D I enjoyed the return of demons and the darkness of the story. Even though the torturing by Sam and Dean was hard to watch. I was wondering if they showed it like that to show how desperate they were at the time for information to stop Lilith. Seems none of them were particularly human at the time..

Yay for Lucifer poking his split tounge out. lol

I think Lucifer is in Sam's brain only. He is "the front" of all the terrible memories that are creating pressure trying to flood into Sam's brain totally to drive him completely over the edge and into madness. Sam's struggle to keep Luci away is, to me, his way of sort of having created and keeping a wall up after the original one broke. But as we can see he is beginning to cave. How much strength must it take to keep this annoying devil at bay all the time..

We have to wait nearly a month for the next ep?! Seriously?? *pouts*
20th-Feb-2012 11:35 am (UTC)
How much strength must it take to keep this annoying devil at bay all the time..

The episode really bought home how hard Sam has to work to not interact with him. To think that he's been there all the time and Sam has successfully been ignoring him. *shudders*

I adore the dynamic between the two of them. I am soooo keen to see what happens next. And yes!!! We have to wait nearly a month! *SOBS*

<33
19th-Feb-2012 08:27 pm (UTC)
I applaud your levels of observation :) Dean calling Jeffrey a psychopath for pretending he's normal is classic round-about spn insult and alienation for Sam, but I hadn't thought to draw back the parallel to Sam 'dancing with his demon'. I think maybe, like the rugaru, Jeffrey was meant as an example of the extreme and we (or at least, I) trust Sam not to go that far.

The question of whether Lucifer is entirely in his head is an interesting one. I've always thought that he is, but more than that, I *hope* that he is. In my head, I tend to compare SPN to Buffy a lot because so many of the elements are the same (which is a compliment, I promise) and one thing that set that show apart from many others was that in the last 2 seasons not only did Buffy have to fight the MOTWs and the big bads, but she also had to fight herself to do it. It was incredibly insightful, and made for wonderful tv. SPN has done 'man vs man' a ton and 'man vs himself' a bit, but I would love for there to be more. It'd be a new level of deep for the show and, I think, realistic that after a lifetime of fighting evil, sometimes the demons that challenge you are of your own creation.

So far, I think that's still possible. Up to now, Luci hasn't offered any information Sam didn't already know or at least come across on his own. And for the lingering shots of Luci after Sam's walked away... I agree that they could be taken in many many ways. I choose to think of it as Sam's own head-canon, where the devil is mucking around, still existing and commenting on things even when Sam's not paying him any attention. Or, maybe he started to get his own shots *because* Sam finally talked to him. I mean, isn't that what makes something real, that it continues to exist whether you're look at it or not?

Then again, I haven't ready any of the comments yet, and I'm sure there are plenty of far more convincing arguments to the contrary :P Thanks again for such wonderful thinky thoughts, they always get my brain rolling (and rolling and rolling... ;) )

19th-Feb-2012 08:32 pm (UTC)
... and rolling! Forgot to say: YES to Mark Pellegrino. The devil is, hands down, my favorite non-brother spn character, in all his incarnations, but mark is phenomenal at it. just. blow my mind. and now that he's admitted to rape... my god. all he has to do is stand there and the trauma is through the roof. LOVE it.
20th-Feb-2012 07:58 pm (UTC)
But, I find that really hard to hold on to. Especially when we get shots of Lucifer that Sam doesn't see.


IKR? Totally jarring. I'm like WTF!

The rape line was so good that I feel it must be a quote from something better. Hee. I have no faith. ;)
20th-Feb-2012 11:03 pm (UTC)
The rape line was so good that I feel it must be a quote from something better.

Ha! I know! Such a clever line (and so perfect for Lu). I wonder if it is a quote from somewhere else. Or maybe Ben did just have a flash of inspiration when writing it..
24th-Feb-2012 03:27 am (UTC)
Here I am, late as usual. I liked the misdirect with the witch. At the beginning I thought she might be somehow possessed, since she avoided walking through the Devil's Trap, saying that it was still drying. The chubby-chasers line annoyed me immensely, but Edlund always seems to have someone say something offensive to someone in his eps, if I remember right.

I agree that it was a solid episode, though not a standout in terms of angst or advancing the plot. And we really have to wait three weeks for the next one? Aaargh!
24th-Feb-2012 10:11 am (UTC)
YEs... the witch misdirect was good. I didn't suspect Jeffery at all.

Yeah...not huge on the angst. Well, except for the last part. I was the one angsting though. Saaaammmyyyyy!

And YES! Three more weeks. It's outrageous! :(((

I need my fix!
xxx
26th-Feb-2012 09:26 pm (UTC)
omg, i just realized these comforters are the same from Yellow Fever. a bit too memorable not to notice :P I know you (and someone? I forget who) have all these sorts of connections listed somewhere. Maybe this can be more evidence for Sam's fear being of something completely imaginary?
27th-Feb-2012 11:21 am (UTC)
WOOT!! Good spot! I've just been doing Yellow Fever episode and missed it.../o\

I love that connection also....\o/ Dean's "imaginary" fear.... and now Sam's.... awesome.

The person you are thinking of is bellanut who I am totally copying in doing this motel study. I've try to contact her a few times but she's never answered. I am hoping she has no issue with me copying her format or linking her posts to the Wiki entries.

I'll open my work in progress post to you soon so you can take a look at what I'm up to. I'm keen to know if it's looking ok. I'm still working on the text so I figure that out and then open it up.

Thank so much for this detail. \o/

xx

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