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8.03 again! (with the bromance this time...) 
21st-Oct-2012 10:25 am
Becc_j Art
Because...yes. That episode was just that good.

Just a couple of tiny observations and a rec.

Ok. So it is no secret how much I loved the last episode and I have to say I was blown away by some of the fabulous observations in the comments on my reaction post. You guys are SMART! When I wrote my reaction I thought I might have been grasping at straws that the MotW represented Sam and Dean but I was left with NO DOUBT after reading this wonderful post by maraceles. (if you haven't read it I highly recommend it. Not least because it makes you see just how smart they are being with the characters this season so far. She also makes a wonderful case for how the parallels work).

You can't tell me this hasn't been thought through by Carver. If he's doing his job right these issues will be teased out over the whole season. If not the whole season then at least the first half. Don't forget we didn't get Sam's side of the story in S4 until episode 9 (I Know What You Did Last Summer) and in S6 we didn't find out what was wrong with Sam until episode 7 (Family Matters). We still have a long way to go. And even if there isn't any great "reveal" about what happened during Sam's year, we know we will be getting something because there are still so many questions unanswered.

This is something that really stood out to me in the episode but I wasn't sure how it was significant until I read the above reaction:

After Dean is about to have his heart literally ripped out (and it's no accident that it's Dean this happened to. After all, Dean was having little pieces of his heart ripped out during the course of the episode. He can see himself losing Sam. And Sam taking that huge chunk of flesh out of that red (heart-like) apple in the beginning of the show? No accident either).

As soon as Dean is saved he immediately turns around to look for Sam. To check he's there, to check he's all right.

8.03 dean looks

And then there's Sam. Of course he's there. But wow... he's had to watch Dean nearly be killed again. It reminds me of Mystery Spot. Sam watching Dean die over and over was condensed into one day. Sam is back to having to worry about losing Dean - again. No wonder he is tired of it all. It's great to me that Carver wrote Mystery Spot because I'm thinking he has this mind set for Sam. Mystery Spot is one of my all time favourite eps, so I am feeling more confident about where all this could be heading.

8.03 Sam looks

I know a lot don't want this to be path Sam is taking this season, but dammit I'm loving it. Sam has NEVER had a chance to be just sick and tired of it all. Even in S1 he was never tired of hunting, he just didn't want to do it. It's a dangerous occupation after all. Dean has been sick and tired of it all for a while (ever since Croatoan really) so the switch around is interesting to me. I don't see it as retcon because it's so different this time. Sam's not being prissy about it. He doesn't want a "normal" life just for the kick of it or so he can deliberately hurt Dean. Now Dean's back he has to watch Dean getting hurt, worry that he might disappear or maybe die AGAIN. He is just so friggin' sick of losing Dean - the one person in the whole world who means more to him than ANYONE ELSE. Who can blame him? (don't answer that as apparently nearly everyone can blame him ;/)

The heartache is only going to get worse I'm afraid. For both boys. (um...yay..?! *g*)

gifs from codependentbrothers on Tumblr. Thanks to big_heart_june for tracking them down for me. <3

I'm off to Sydney (again *g*) next week. Not a holiday this time though. I hope to have time to be on-line but I have no idea how busy I will be. (not too busy to watch the next ep I hope!)

21st-Oct-2012 05:54 am (UTC)
Great points. I liked this episode much more. They were in almost every scene together ( which must have been tough on Jensen, but good for the Show:), and the characterisations came through better in the writing this week. Dean's will to enjoy the hunt again, with Sam by his side WHICH HE ACTUALLY ARTICULATED, was sweet to watch again, and Sam seemed sad and quiet more than anything. That scene in the car was a real heart-tugger, as was intended, I'm sure.

Yup, I'm with you. Big things are afoot somewhere down the line - I think Sam will leave, it's being set up fairly resolutely. But he'll also come back and THAT will be the interesting thing to watch play out.

Edited at 2012-10-21 05:55 am (UTC)
21st-Oct-2012 09:51 am (UTC)
Yeah - I can't wait to see what brings about him leaving and then returning. And how Dean is going to accept it. We also have to find out what exactly happened to Dean in Purgatory and why he's come out of there so buzzed.

Oh boys!!! (so glad to be able to say that again... <3)

21st-Oct-2012 10:42 am (UTC)
I've read a few posts comparing the MOTW to Sam, and gotta admit, aside from the brilliant transition between the MOTW ripping out alley guy's heart and Sam ripping out Dean's heart in the car, I'd not seen it that way. (Yeah, I'm one of those who utterly loved 8.03's brotherly aspects, but not so much the actual case they were on. Obviously, dim-bulb me never made the connection . . . but now I'm thinking a re-viewing is in order.)

Now Dean's back he has to watch Dean getting hurt, worry that he might disappear or maybe die AGAIN. He is just so friggin' sick of losing Dean - the one person in the whole world who means more to him than ANYONE ELSE.

I get this. And Sam's expression up there pretty much says it all. But if Sam outright leaves, and Dean returns to lone hunting, another monster will corner him as this one did. There will be no last-second rescue from Sam, Dean will die alone, and Sam may very well spend the rest of his life wondering what happened -- or worse, blaming himself.

What's worse -- to actually see your brother be hurt or die, or to never know his fate?

eta: I know that this will never happen on Show, but surely the thought has crossed Sam's mind?

Edited at 2012-10-21 10:44 am (UTC)
21st-Oct-2012 11:29 am (UTC)
The thought that if Sam leaves then he is leaving Dean completely vulnerable did indeed cross my mind. Very much. It's a dilemma and I suppose I hope Sam considers this if he does actually leave. I'm not spoiled for the future eps but if Sam does leave it can't be long before he returns. I am very keen to see how they play this. Sure, Sam has left Dean before - never because he just doesn't want to hunt anymore though. He has left Dean vulnerable before so I wonder what his thoughts will be on that now.

Oooh....so many questions! (I am still pretty nervous about how it will unfold, I just hope it's done with the sense of purpose that the first 3 eps have.

Mostly the MotW story was washing over my head - I was far too distracted by all the SamnDean. It wasn't until Eleanor was telling them her story did I suddenly feel like this was all about them.

Everything became a little more clear (and interesting) after that...:D

21st-Oct-2012 12:28 pm (UTC)
I really hope they don't play out Sam leaving and coming back through Dean being in danger and Sam having to come back and save him, and stay and keep saving him. Because that comes down to a situation where Dean's choice dictates Sam's: if Dean chooses to hunt, Sam has to choose to hunt with him, or make himself responsible for Dean's danger and death. I don't want Sam blackmailed into coming back out of guilt. Even if it's not Dean himself emotionally blackmailing Sam, that to me still taints their relationship with an element of blackmail, and comes down on the side of Dean's whole buying produce while people die guilt trip.

I need the show to allow Sam's non-hunting values to be real and valid, and to somehow be integrated into how he and Dean end up living their lives together. The way they've set it up, I'm really thinking they need to change the model of the show some: let Sam and Dean become more like Bobby, or Ellen, or Rufus, let Sam maintain a long-distance relationship and hunt part-time, as Dean once envisioned with Lisa. Honestly, I think a little change in structure would also be good for keeping the show from becoming too repetitively procedural. Maybe not a shake-up as major as Angel s5, but a shake-up. (Though part of me would love to see Sam go to law school and become a lawyer for hunters AND monsters.)

If it's just Sam leaves but comes back, Sam doubts but is reconverted, that will be very cheap to me. In a way, even while they are lightening the show some with a return to emphasis on the more positive aspects of hunting, they've also set up a situation where they have to confront head on some of the darkness and ambiguity that has been part of that model of heroism from the beginning. They can't do that by going back to "hunting is good, it's about saving people with your brother," even if it comes with a side of "other things are also good and it's very sad that Sam has to give them up." I think they need to actively change the way they do hunting so it is different and better.
21st-Oct-2012 12:55 pm (UTC)
*nods* I can see that. I think it will be problematic if it's a simple matter of leaving, Dean gets hurt so he has to return. It won't progress their story or make for interesting developments so I'd be surprised if they did this.

The last time they willingly separated their reunion was valid for both of them (I'm thinking of after The End). Sam staying just to watch Dean's back won't provide any real solution to either of their issues. Doesn't mean it might not be explored though I suppose.

I think a shake up would be quite cool. (especially if there are pans for more seasons after this one...)

(Though part of me would love to see Sam go to law school and become a lawyer for hunters AND monsters.)

Oh I would love that! I have this hankering to see Sam as a Lawyer. (and I did love that he was exploring options other than hunting I have to admit). Hee... a lawyer for monsters. A type of Law and Order, Supernatural style. ;)
21st-Oct-2012 01:02 pm (UTC)
Yeah. I think their greatest challenge in all this, really, is dealing with the impact the format of the show has on the themes, characters, etc. As they have things set up it's not coming across as Dean is right, Sam is wrong, or Sam is right, Dean is wrong on the emotional and philosophical fronts at all. At the moment they are each rejecting the other in a way, and each shutting out some values that they ought to give weight to, but also each showing that they matter to each other. But the niggling worry I have is that, when it comes down to it, Dean at the moment = Supernatural as we know it, and Sam = something different. Even if Sam chooses the same old hunting formula out of his own genuine conviction, not out of guilt or sacrifice or because (please no) something happens to Amelia, it's still going to feel awfully . . . convenient. I guess I'll understand if the show goes that route why it did so, but I hope it will do something a bit riskier.
21st-Oct-2012 01:21 pm (UTC)
Risky would be great. Edgy also.

Man, I just don't know. We've seen Show do some fairly daring things and pull it off (mostly), but now as it moves into its eighth season it's challenged with, on the one hand, being the show that we all fell in love with, but also keeping the characters evolving, finding justifiable reasons to keep them together AND present us with MotW stories each week. On top of that, developing new and interesting characters that somehow fit into the lives of our boys.

*cheerleads* them on.
22nd-Oct-2012 12:01 am (UTC)
I have this hankering to see Sam as a Lawyer. (and I did love that he was exploring options other than hunting I have to admit). Hee... a lawyer for monsters. A type of Law and Order, Supernatural style.

Agreed. And I have a present for you, bb!
21st-Oct-2012 11:13 am (UTC)
WOW, these posts! I'm so impressed, I could never be that insightful! :P I LOVE IT. ♥
No thanks needed, BB, just happy to help out and spread the love. ♥
21st-Oct-2012 11:33 am (UTC)
Hee! Peeps are insightful yeah?! Thank god or else I'd might just be tearing my hair out. Sometimes I think Show makes things to obvious and then other times not obvious enough!

*hugs* to spreading the love.


(How the hell did I not know you sooner!?! My Flist is a happier place to scroll through with all those yummy pics! <33 and just you...)
21st-Oct-2012 12:13 pm (UTC)
n'aww! ♥ and YOU! and your talent and ridiculously clever posts and undying optimism and FLAIL and massive LOVE for our BOYS. you're a joy to have around
21st-Oct-2012 11:34 am (UTC)
Ah man. I kinda get where Sam is at psychologically, I do, I just don't like how the writers are handling it in terms of Amelia and OMG MOST PERFECT THING IN HIS LIFE EVER.

Edited at 2012-10-21 11:35 am (UTC)
21st-Oct-2012 12:11 pm (UTC)
Hey hun!


Ah... I'm not getting that myself. I think because the very first thing we saw of them was Sam leaving her (and not in a good way - creeping out in the night) which suggests that it was no where near perfect.

I know that final flashback looked like everything was ideal but, idk, I suppose I'm thinking (maybe hoping) that parts of it were wonderful but other parts weren't. Not being spoiled means I have no idea how they are planning to treat this relationship. I suppose I'm hoping it's realistic - as in gritty.

I'm still feeling that Sam very much loves Dean. He just wants something different. So does Dean. They are at odds but the odds are making a lot of sense to me at the moment.

But... I might be wrong. Maybe it was the most perfect thing and perhaps Sam is really missing it. Ack! I don't know. I can't wait to see what they are doing just so I can put my mind at ease.

23rd-Oct-2012 10:42 am (UTC)
I don't think I can fully get into that discussion just yet without stating my opinions on certain spoilery things, so I'll keep myself shut. ;)

21st-Oct-2012 12:23 pm (UTC)
Lovely thoughts and observation! :D
21st-Oct-2012 12:32 pm (UTC)
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