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I am considering ( considering) opening a topic for discussion on… 
11th-May-2013 10:31 am
He's not dead
I am considering (considering) opening a topic for discussion on whether destiel will become canon in the show sometime soon.

What do you think?

Should I post an essay on this topic and invite discussion?

Yes, I'd be interested to know what the arguments are.
No, even with your good intentions it will only end in tears an copious amounts of wank.
Why not. You posted about men v women deaths on the show, it can't be more touchy than that.
No. There's no discussion. It'll never happen.
No. There's no discussion. It's clearly where they are heading.
What?! Is this show some fucking soap opera now?
Um...well, there was the Sam and Amelia soapy romance.
Ha! You clearly have a too much time on your hands. Go and make stuff instead.
Yes. I trust that you will keep it civilized. I think it's worth talking about.
Wait. What?! People think that?
OMG! Seriously?! Boring topic is boring. I don't even care.
You're STILL talking about that show?!
Other - that I will explain in the comments.
11th-May-2013 02:36 am (UTC)
I hope you are wearing a raincoat..hee :)
11th-May-2013 02:49 am (UTC)
11th-May-2013 02:39 am (UTC)
lol! my daughter's car broke down and I have to go get her.

so, if this were to ever be in the show it would have to be a meta episode.

i believe the writers are aware of it. at least Ben Edlund is (Castiel holding Dean in an angelic embrace, wink wink) and if they were to do this it would be an intentional nod at the viewers.

oops, maybe i clicked that one before i read them all. sorry frazzled.

11th-May-2013 02:53 am (UTC)
Oooh...a meta episode! Now that's a possibility actually. I hadn't considered that. I wonder if they'd have the guts to go there...

They could tackle wincest while they were there. (only that's more taboo, so I doubt they go that far...)
11th-May-2013 02:44 am (UTC)
I think if the show were going to go there, they'd have gone there way back around the time they went to the 'blow me' and 'not for nothing but the last time someone looked at me like that I got laid' place. But mostly I don't believe the actors (Jensen, actually) or the producers have the balls. Zero balls are had. (I WOULD LIKE TO BE PROVEN WRONG.)
11th-May-2013 02:59 am (UTC)
This was my point exactly in the recent discussion I had. If this were on a cable network then they might have the balls to go there. As it is, and the show has been well established within certain boundaries, I doubt they'd "risk" breaking them.

And yes, there were certainly more opportunities in past episode to take that direction if they were going to. I honestly think they just like teasing fandom (which I feel has now backfired on them considering the recent con kerfuffle).

Happy to be proved wrong. And in fact someone suggested that it could exist in a meta episode - which, hmmmm,....coooould possibly happen.
11th-May-2013 03:39 am (UTC)
I have trouble wanting anything to get in the way of my Sam/Dean OTP, so I don't really hope for it, but at the same time, I can't help but wish they did have the balls to do Destiel in canon if we can't have actual Wincest. Which methinks we can't. Alas. lol
11th-May-2013 01:45 pm (UTC)
Yeah that. I'm torn because I think it would be amazing if a mainstream show decided to take this route but I'm really not interested it seeing D/C because the pairing just doesn't work for me. That's purely personal of course. ;)

11th-May-2013 04:13 am (UTC)

Dean and Cas are like my OTP to end all my OTPs but, speaking as an oldschool D/C'er, can I just register how deeply I hate that portmanteau? ;)
11th-May-2013 07:53 am (UTC)
Yes, THIS. It's been co-opted by Tumblr and that's what you have to label everything now. Bah, I hate it. We old-school shippers only used the "/" back in the day. I'm old.

More on the topic, as a member of the LGBT community, it would be amazingly *earth-shattering* to see a male character previously only seen as straight come out as bisexual on a network television show (despite its relative small viewership in the grand scheme of things). Now, Joss Whedon did it with Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but to be honest it's more acceptable to the viewing audience because she was female.

To have Show take a step to FINALLY follow through with all this wink-wink and double entendres and outright "You're confusing me with the other angel who's in love with you" stuff would be revelatory. I'm sick and tired of the writers (and the actors at cons) constantly jokingly referring to it, when I don't think they understand how important it would be to those of us in the community. It's not a joke. It's not funny. It's not cute. I wish they would stop playing it to the audience as such.

If it was never planned to have Dean come out as bisexual, fine. If that's the case, then they need to STOP with all the dialogue that can be interpreted in expressly gay ways for two male characters to be saying to each other and define the Dean/Cas relationship as strictly familial. Stop playing to your audience of teenage shippers and winking at the relationship. It pisses me off.

As a Dean/Cas shipper, I don't think it will ever be canon, because I don't think the writers would ever have enough balls to pursue it.
11th-May-2013 05:12 am (UTC)
While I write mostly gen my reading goes more in the lines with Balthazar: everything goes. So no, I don't have any actual shipping preference, Destiel or otherwise. But yeah, Destiel is very much canon in the way they interact, the only question is if they are bumping ugly's.
So, are you talking about making that canon? Because you know the fandom, this easily gets out of hand in a clash of Destiel shippers vs. Wincest shippers. Again.
11th-May-2013 09:53 am (UTC)
Yes. I am talking about an actual romantic relationship. Declarations of romantic love, kissing - it all out in the open. I don't consider what they have at the moment to be a romantic love. I personally see it has an uneasy bond, where they are working out how their friendship works. There's no doubt the connection is there but I feel like they've only been "teasing" viewers (which is a discussion in itself). Or maybe they haven't. Maybe they are actually exploring the different levels of this relationship.

As strange as it sounds, this isn't about D/C v S/D for me. Shipping is shipping and I don't give two hoots about who people choose to ship. It's all part of the fun of fandom. What is interesting to me is what TPTB are doing and is there a direction they are heading in. Just my curiosity. I've already learned a thing or two reading various arguments and discussions.

11th-May-2013 05:19 am (UTC)
I almost went with the "it will clearly never happen" choice. Basically if anyone could host such a discussion and keep it as reasonable as that subject could be, it would be you.

Destiel is a hot button topic for me. Actually after the last wank around it, I'm a lot more mellow about it than I used to be after seeing everyone go a little batshit crazy around the subject. And that is the very problem I have about the subject, I am unhappy about how much it seems to have driven this "great divide" in fandom. Yes there has always be versus wank prior to Dean/Cas. But the Destielers pushing/thinking it could be actual canon, to me, seems to have driven a much deeper wedge in fandom. And that saddens and angers me. And up until this subject, I've never really gotten hot under the collar about anything fan related. (I think, perhaps I've blanked it from my mind.)

Don't get me wrong I like Cas. And I like the bond between Dean and Cas. And I wish there were more Cas and Sam bonding going on. And I lol a little bit about how all the versus wank seems to be always about "who gets Dean!" lol. But these OTPs are fanon and shouldn't be canon. And yes there's a little bit of butthurt Sam/Dean OTP speaking here. Not of the wincest variety; but of the "show is and always shall be" about the brothers.

11th-May-2013 03:49 pm (UTC)
Destiel is a hot button topic for me.

Any for many I think. :)

And pretty much yes to all this for me also. I've been thinking about my general frustration towards Cas recently (and it's been growing for the last couple of years) and I think a lot of it boils down to how divisive the character has been in the fandom. I mean, I get it and I like that there are fans who enjoy the show because that exists for them but it has also created such a level of nastiness that it ends up reflecting on the character.

I'm trying for it not to because I don't want the show (or character) spoiled because of what's happened outside of the actual episodes. In some ways discussing this helps (the same way you said you're a little more mellow after seeing everyone go batshit crazy). Teasing the argument out and getting to the actual point of why this is happening helps me a little.

What I come away with is..each to their own. Nothing has changed. It's extremely unlikely they've even considered making D/C canon. I don't think it excuses them constantly teasing the audience with it though (and even though we can say "but they're just got a good male bond, there's no denying they plant suggestions all the damn time. Though less these last years I think). I'd like to see them drop that completely and stick to showing us a genuine friendship (like they did very successfully with Dean and Benny).


11th-May-2013 05:54 am (UTC)

11th-May-2013 07:53 am (UTC)

I know...;)
11th-May-2013 06:31 am (UTC)
While I think Misha'd be up for it, and while we know that the writers and actors are well aware of what they're doing every time Dean and Cas have a lover's spat or stare longingly into each other's eyes (as per what Misha's said about them all paying homage to the Destiel dynamic), I don't think the SPN Powers That Be would ever have the guts to go there. As amazing as it would be to have a non-hetero canon pairing on a show (where their sexual orientation isn't the whole damn focus on the show), there's a portion of fandom that would tear the Powers That Be apart for canonically making Dean anything but manly male complete heterosexual, and we're still such a cult show that I don't think the Powers That Be would ever risk alienating any of their audience (not to mention risking the show's ability to get renewed, because, well, institutionalized homophobia sucks).

That being said, I, personally, view Destiel as canon already. In terms of the sexual orientation part of things, there have been more than enough hints at Dean not being completely straight (honestly, his entire character arc - up from 'Well, you are kind of butch. Maybe they think you're overcompensating.' and him being visibly uneasy around non-straight guys, to him getting all flattered and flustered when Aaron hits on him; and this isn't even considering his insane relationship with Cas - has been quite impressive, with regards to sexual orientation). He's gone from not-quite-homophobic-but-still-uneasy to the much more awesome place where he is now. And then Cas, of course, is a genderless angel in a male body who - by his own admission - is indifferent to sexual orientation, and who stares at Dean like Dean hung the moon, and who - canonically - is able to have sex, so. Yeah. I think that, canonically, there's enough to go on.

And that's not even getting into the emotional connection the two of them have, jesus christ. I'd give anything to have someone look at me the way the two of them look at each other. So are we ever gonna get Dean and Cas just flat-out making out on screen? Highly doubtful, unfortunately. But seeing as the actors and writers know damn well what they're doing, and seeing as Misha supports it, and seeing as there's already enough evidence to make an argument for their relationship already being canon - well, I'll take it. And if the SPN Powers That Be ever decide to go any further, I'll support 'em completely, cause that would be awesome.

... Also, apologies for writing you a novel, when the poll was simply to see whether even starting this conversation was a good idea. Apparently I have a lot of feels. XD
11th-May-2013 02:20 pm (UTC)
Hi there,

Thanks for the novel! :D Nicely put. And it's pretty much what I've been reading. That there's enough there to take it as canon for those who want it. And that's the point I suppose. It's there for those who want it. It can equally be said for those that don't. For me I struggle to even see the friendship at times, but I do see that there's a big enough "mess" for it to be read in any way that works. And I don't mean "mess" as a bad thing. Mostly, that they are still trying to work it all out. Both their relationship and what to do with it.

Though canon for me would be making it completely overt (kissing and everything) rather than just dropping hints. I can't see them ever going there though - which leaves us with reading it in the way that makes us happiest.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. <3

11th-May-2013 07:05 am (UTC)
You're making me cry. :(
11th-May-2013 07:46 am (UTC)
Sorry hun! See, it was making me cry so I decided to really look into it and see what's being said. It's just my way of dealing with it. If it helps, I can't see this ever happening. Many of the arguments I saw have been based on what they thought would be happening in Season 8.

(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
11th-May-2013 07:12 am (UTC)
I love you to bits and your posts always make me smile but the choices you put up there for that poll hit me as really quite peculiar. I can see how you went from yes to no to yes again in theory, but as I went down the list I found it harder to try and pick one to click and answer. It kind of unsettled me and I can't put my finger on why, so I'm going to give an apology hug for the ramble and head back to my corner after this. <3

The fact that you're even considering braving the waters of an essay on the topic however is really cool and I trust the reactions of folks here are more mature than on tumblr when any ship topic is brought up. Wank is never needed anywhere. :)

twisting_vine_x was very eloquent and I can't add much to her post, only to say that if Castiel's vessel had been originally chosen as female and their interactions across the years kept identical, critics would be lauding these two from the rooftop of every magazine as TV's most clever, unrequited build-up. The X-Files once made a fortune out of holding Mulder and Scully at arm's length while displaying their obvious care and affection for one another and then closing that gap ever so slowly over time.

I can't say personally if I ever see it becoming canon in the near future, but I know that whatever the show's endgame is/will be, they're certainly not above throwing constant titbits to the audience and I get the faint impression (from both online and my own friends and family - particularly my mother who is in her 60s and wouldn't understand subtle if it hit her with a proverbial brick) that these hints are broadening from the original nods to the side of the fandom they know is watching, to something casual viewers can -and have- picked up on. Whether this is part of a deliberate evolution or just them trying to please everyone while still making sure to add the bro moments I can't say. I know what I quietly have come to believe based on what I've witnessed and my own conversations with Misha, however they have two more seasons at least and if I were a gambling woman I'd say we wouldn't get anything concrete (if we ever do) until the final days.
11th-May-2013 01:39 pm (UTC)
Sadly, if Cas's vessel had been female from the beginning I doubt the character would have remained on the show. Virtually any female character who was of an age to be a love interest and who had a long term role has been disliked by fandom. AFAIK Cas was originally supposed to be on for a few episodes and then Anna would have taken on the role of angel who switches sides. The fandom fell in love with Misha so he stayed and Anna went.
11th-May-2013 07:48 am (UTC)
LOL. Seeing this poll and the choices to click made me grin. Other than being tempted to click "Ha! You clearly have too much time on your hands. Go and make stuff" for the laugh of it, the honest choice would be "What?! Is this show some fucking soap opera now?!" *clix*
I'm still traumatized from how they potrayed Cas in the last ep. This was the first time I thought maybe the show would be better off having killed him off quite a while ago. And I actually really like Castiel. But not in this whiney, trying to kiss Dean's ass kind of fashion and trusting Metatron because Dean is not there to tell him otherwise.(puke)
But anyway *deep breath* if you do post a discussion about destiel in the show I'd come and have a look anyway. :)
11th-May-2013 03:19 pm (UTC)
*hugs* you honey!

I clearly DO have too much time on my hands and the show IS a damn soap opera at times! The relationship discussions make me wonder what friggin' genre this show is sometimes! :D

And yeah. I'm pretty annoyed about what they did with Cas in the last ep. I suppose all the characters have been somehow "reset" this season (the actors have even said this themselves), so this might be Cas's reset. Back to childlike, confused about his role in the scheme of things, seeking Dean's approval type of behavior. Shame, because it looked like they were going somewhere with him. But you never know, they might be leading up down the garden path with this one...;)

11th-May-2013 08:00 am (UTC)
I just don't see this deep connection others do with Destiel or buy it, guess I can't let go of how intense Sam and Dean were in the early seasons. I just end up resenting the writers for dumping them and shifting away from the intense codependent laser focus on Sam and Dean's relationship by making everyone Dean's very best friend/sibling.
11th-May-2013 03:23 pm (UTC)
Yeah, it does seem like a direction they are taking. Though I am happy that the end of the season seems to be focusing again on their incredible, codependent, "I'd do anything for you" relationship. :)
11th-May-2013 08:13 am (UTC)
ROFL why would you invite that kind of wank into your journal?

Personally, I have to admit that the thought of Destiel makes me sick to my stomach, and if the writers would ever go there, I would be out before the respective episode is even over. As someone who finds the relationship between Dean and Castiel poorly written and developed and more forced than anything, such a scenario is just preposterous. Plus, introducing a D/C romance to the show would drastically shift its focus and I could never support that. I think fanon should stay fanon and the writers should rather concentrate on improving their story-telling than cater to the needs of a vocal potion of fandom.
12th-May-2013 01:47 am (UTC)
Ha! Well, it seems a discussion has happened and I'm thrilled to report - no wank so far. I am a little startled by that fact, but equally not, because I have an awesome flist. :)

And you've pretty much summed up a lot of what has been mentioned in lower threads.

writers should rather concentrate on improving their story-telling

I think they are struggling to tell the stories they are currently telling without adding a layer that would require a deft touch - which, er, as much as I adore my show I don't think subtle, sensitive, groundbreaking story telling is on the table.

Besides. There's too many monsters to kill to worry about romance! (surely they figured that out after the first half of the season). ;D

12th-May-2013 03:20 am (UTC)
I like discussions about pretty much anything - because that's the way I tick

I do to and I am pleased to say there's been a pretty interesting and civil discussion. Paint me impressed. :)

It's actually cupidbows post that sparked all this. I've seen her mention it a couple of times and now that I am a little more active on Tumblr I'm seeing stuff pop up over there. I wanted to investigate it all a little further to see how much weight the argument was holding. There's a lot of stuff out there, that's for sure. I started to write down my own thoughts on it, which was when I decided that I might poll the electorate before I went much further.

I won't be posting it because this discussion has pretty much covered stuff I was going to say anything. :))
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