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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
It can be done...;) 
12th-May-2013 10:18 pm
Oh yeah
Well paint me impressed. A damn fine and civilized d/c discussion was had with absolutely no wank or tears. There were some awesome points made and everyone played nice. *cheers*

Thank you.

I won't be posting anything further on it because I ended up having the discussion I wanted anyway. Plus everyone else made far better arguments and points than I could have done.

In conclusion? Fandom is cool and my flist are made of complete win.

In other news, my family is arriving tomorrow for a week long visit. The good news is YAY I can't wait to see them. The not so good news is I have no idea when I'm going to squeeze in watching the show and writing stuff up about it. I'm hoping to sneak away to take a watch and maybe post a insta!reaction, but I'm not sure (arghh...I can't believe the timing!).

Have fun! I'll catch ya all on the flipside. <3
xox
Comments 
12th-May-2013 02:59 pm (UTC)
have a great visit!!!

i know that my family knows to not talk to me, open the door, make noise during the hour that Supernatural is on. only if a fire is creeping towards the bedroom should they bother me!! i'm sure you can sneak away to watch the finale!!!
13th-May-2013 12:49 pm (UTC)
Thank you!

My fam know how hooked I am on the show and I am sure they'll understand if I tell them I need a little bit of time to watch...;) I don't think they fully understand my obsession, but they humour me.

xx
13th-May-2013 09:12 am (UTC)
Have fun with your family! :D
And i'm sure they'll give you two hours to your supernatural self within that whole week to keep you happy and shining. ;)
13th-May-2013 12:50 pm (UTC)
Thanks sweetie!

They are pretty understanding. They are here for such a short time though so I know asking to sneak away might be tricky. Though if we have an early night I am sure I can get a watch in.

I HAVE TO! IT'S THE FINALE!!

<33
13th-May-2013 12:57 pm (UTC)
Yeah.. finale... BRING IT, SHOW!! *iz nervous*
13th-May-2013 01:25 pm (UTC)
I am SO nervous!! It might be good that I have to wait.... *bites nails*

xx
14th-May-2013 08:07 am (UTC)
does d/c = dean/castiel?
14th-May-2013 08:33 am (UTC)
Oh yes. Sorry, I've been immersed in this discussion and I ended up using short hand. Also - seems "destiel" isn't a favourite of everybody's.

14th-May-2013 10:12 am (UTC)
Name-smooshing is often seen as a teenager's game, though some of them do amuse me. :P
14th-May-2013 04:23 pm (UTC)
Damn fine discussion indeed, your flist continues to amaze me with being level-headed and wank-free.

*curls up in happy-SPN-fandom place and refuses to leave*

14th-May-2013 11:35 pm (UTC)
It was a fine discussion indeed.

And happy fandom places seem to be harder to find these days. :)
14th-May-2013 06:16 pm (UTC)
You know why that discussion was so civil? It was because we mostly kept out of it even though we were the ones y'all were talking about (by 'we' I mean D/C shippers). It talked about us, not with us, and from skimming it I took it that almost none of the people in that discussion shipped D/C and that some even despise it as a ship. Doesn't change that it ~was civil and wank-free, but it's not the whole picture. ;)

Disclaimer of sorts: I actually don't think that D/C will ever become canon although I ship it like fed-ex. Just saying the results of said discussion may not have been all that scientific. ;)
15th-May-2013 12:12 am (UTC)
Hi,

I'm actually really sad to hear that. For two reasons. 1) That you feel d/c shippers wouldn't have been able to discuss that without it being wanky and 2) the feeling we were talking "about" them and not "with them".

Something I particularly liked was the differing levels of opinions - whether they be from d/c shippers or not. We did have d/c shippers join in the discussion and I felt their points were extremely strong and actually opened my eyes to the idea that, actually, this could be a possibility. I also read articles on it on some tumblr posts and actually feel like I have a pretty good (and positive) viewpoint on the arguments.

Also (and I believe why it didn't become a wank fest), we weren't discussing whether we want it to happen (even though people stated their preferences for that at times), it was more about how it could work, what it would mean for Supernatural and the evolution of the show. I've come away with a much broader insight into the very notion of fandom ships becoming canon. Mostly, that it's nothing new (the desire for it that is) and there are some broader discussions about it out there. That was the most interesting part of the discussion for me.

I knew there would be potential for nastiness, but even through differing opinions were aired everyone's were respected.

I can't see why, just because we are passionate fans, we can't actually discuss stuff that is going on in fandom (I believe I mentioned being naive in my disclaimer). I'd like to think it was civil because the people who chose to participated decided to put their points forward in a non threatening, respectful way.

The discussion ended up being what it was simply because I had asked the question about it. IF I had posted the essay there might have been a more "scientific" discussion. This was never about being scientific, this was a group of fans having a (hopefully safe) place to come and talk about fandom stuff.

I did feel though that some of the reasons presented for why it won't become canon very sound. It mostly came down to TPTB not having the balls. There were many other good, sane reasons but they are in the thread and I won't regurgitate them here. (Also some compelling reason why it just might.)

The saddest thing about your comment is the very thing that I find upsetting in fandom at the moment. And that is that there is "us" and "them". I, naively, would like to think of us as "we".

(perhaps I better stay in my corner after all...)

ETA: There's actually a great discussion going on at the moment between a d/c shipper and a non d/c shipper. It fills my heart with glee. :))

Edited at 2013-05-15 12:16 am (UTC)
15th-May-2013 06:32 am (UTC)
First off, this 'you feel d/c shippers wouldn't have been able to discuss that without it being wanky' wasn't what I was trying to say. I, as a D/C shipper, didn't feel like I could've commented without ~attracting wank and inviting whiplash. Which, okay, might already have something to do with the fact that it's a discussion hosted by a non-shipper and on LJ. I did consider it anway, because I adore you ♥ and actually enjoy discussing stuff with you, but I read through a couple of threads and... Yeah. No. I'm not gonna go into detail and pick out any specific comments as examples, because it wasn't my intention to point fingers anywhere or sour the discussion as a whole for you.

It's not just my takeaway either, though; I had more than one fellow D/Cer or non-shipper mention the discussion to me with a similar stance, and I've run into two posts on my flist that went and cited it as an example of how D/C is a stupid misconception and D/C shippers should just pack up and go and stop spoiling the fun for everyone else. I know neither was your intention, but, yeah. :(

But, sadly, by now I very much feel like there is an ~us and a ~we here when it comes to D/C. It started with people being outraged that some peeps started/kept watching for Cas, and has by now escalated to hate being thrown at TPTB on twitter every time Cas is in an ep or even mentioned, and to tumblr accounts being created that have no other purpose than to reblog D/C posts with mockery and hate.

I'm a multi-shipper who's a Dean!girl first and a D/C OTP'er second, and believe me, I'd rather have that devide not be there and everyone getting along, but it IS there. With every ep in which D/C so much look at each other, I run into (uncut) posts on my flist that demand for that travesty to be over and Cas to be killed of already so S/D can go back to being co-dependent and are about no one but each other. The last time I expressed my opinions about the show (not shipping-related, either), I got PMs calling me wanky and immature and ragey and unreasonable, got accused of spoiling the fun for others and defriended. In the very few posts I made about D/C, someone usually felt compelled to point out that there's nothing there and that Cas should gtfo, even if they might've followed that up with telling me they'll let me have my different take. Whee, thanks, how generous. :/

So yes. There's an US and there's a WE, and it's why I do SPN fandom on Tumblr these days and not on LJ anymore, and the same goes for a bunch of my friends that I ~met on LJ in the first place. I'm not pigheaded enough to insist on my place in the SPN fandom on LJ despite being driven out of it, so I packed up my things in regard to SPN and evacuated from what I started to percieve as a place where I'm not wanted. And I know that I'm not the only one at all. We're driven out of this corner of the fandom, redued to what we ship and who we like and told how that's WRONG, and most of us didn't want for that to happen and didn't leave for any other reason than to save what's left of our happy place.



Edited at 2013-05-15 06:36 am (UTC)
16th-May-2013 12:29 am (UTC)
Hey,

didn't feel like I could've commented without ~attracting wank and inviting whiplash

I'm sorry to hear that, but I do understand. That's exactly what I was worried about too. In fact, each time a comment came in I was thinking..."this'll be the one". But it never was. Sure, some could have incited some wank, but I was pleased that people either let it go or replied respectfully. It's a shame that some shippers felt like the couldn't comment without it causing wank or have a backlash. I would suggest that would simply come down to how they presented their points. If they went in aggressive and confrontational then yeah I would say that would cause wank, if they, as the d/c shippers we did have comment, come in willing to discuss and present interesting arguments then I would like to think it wouldn't.

I totally understand D/Cers not wanting to get into a discussion hosted by a non shipper. Which makes me extremely happy that some did. And I won't accept that they are any "less" a D/C shipper than someone on Tumblr or any where else because they chose to present their points - I would like to think they felt comfortable enough to feel safe there.

I'm also getting a picture that there's "Tumblr fandom" and "LJ fandom" ( have something to do with the fact that it's a discussion hosted by a non-shipper and on LJ) and it's (again) sad to hear that if an LJer posts something that seemingly involves the Tumblr crowd it's considered a no-no. I wonder when the heck that happened?! /o\

I got PMs calling me wanky and immature and ragey and unreasonable, got accused of spoiling the fun for others and defriended.

I am terribly sorry to hear that. It puts into perspective why you were critical of the discussion. I think I would run a mile if I had experienced that (and in all honesty, I thought that might happen to me during this discussion).

Though I will keep coming back to saying - the discussion was not about Castiel. At no point (that I recall) did anyone comment about Cas needing to be killed off, or is spoiling things, or hating that d/c is shipped. It was purely about whether D/C could become canon. I'm sure there IS that discussion out there, but in my mind that would be incredibly harmful. There is no way anyone could come out of that unscathed. Simply because of the differing opinions on that. Nothing a D/C shipper would say to a non-shipper (and visa versa) would change that - so the discussion would be pointless.

I don't believe this was pointless (other than in the worldly scheme of things...;D). Many times non-shippers actually said they'd like to see D/C become canon just to see the CW have the balls. And I have to defend that we were talking about "you". We were talking about a ship becoming canon, not about "that part of fandom that wants (or maybe doesn't want) this". Though, it crosses a fine line I suppose. It came about because of some posts I saw on D/C becoming canon and realising that this was a talking point. Also, I got into a discussion with a friend about it (d/c shipper) and it made me want to explore the notion more. She made some interesting points (going so far as suggesting that people who don't want it are homophobic). The discussion never broached that point, but if I had posted the essay it would have done.

I am curious what the d/c shippers you are talking about would say about the issue. You even said "I actually don't think that D/C will ever become canon". As far as I can see it it's either - yes, I can see this happening, or no I can't - and the reasons why. I'm just not sure what they would say that wasn't already said.

Anyway. I was happy with the way it went. Sure it didn't cover every aspect of the issue and in reality only a handful of people participated but I was happy it didn't end in a wank fest. Which, was the point of this post. ;D
17th-May-2013 09:06 am (UTC)
Since your last paragraph sounds like a 'conclosing line' to me... ;) I do have things to reply with once more, if you'd like me to (there are a thing or two you probably understood in a way that wasn't intended and that could use clearing up, for one), but if you view this conversation as wrapped/closed I wouldn't wanna drag it out. :)
17th-May-2013 11:22 am (UTC)
Oh no no no...not wrapped up. You know me hun, I am more than happy to hear stuff. I probably have misinterpreted stuff. I do think I know where you're coming from. I was thinking about this today and thought... how would I feel about voicing my opinion in a thread posted by a d/c shipper and mostly d/c shippers were posting? My answer...it depends on who's hosting. I DID comment on just such a thread and we had a really interesting discussion. But I know that doesn't work for everyone. And I know there were some comments in my discussion that were contentious.

I am happy to talk this through. I know we are aware of each others preferences and I certainly respect yours. I pretty much skirt the shipping wars on Tumblr (I did see some of it today but it really doesn't interest me).

So yes please...if you are happy to clarify I'm more than happy to hear. :))
xx
22nd-May-2013 05:30 pm (UTC)
It's a shame that some shippers felt like the couldn't comment without it causing wank or have a backlash. I would suggest that would simply come down to how they presented their points. If they went in aggressive and confrontational then yeah I would say that would cause wank, if they, as the d/c shippers we did have comment, come in willing to discuss and present interesting arguments then I would like to think it wouldn't.
I know that's not what you mean, but let's play this out with a wink for argument's sake: why do peeps keep assuming that D/C fans are raging and confrontational? Most of the actual wank I see in the whole Wincest vs. Destiel think is actually induced by the Wincest fraction and then merely amped up by D/C shippers taking the bite, and yet some of the more peaceful and reasonable Wincest fans are afraid of us like we all have rabies. Just today, there's been wank over a drawing some Wincesters found offensive that followed that exact pattern, there's been several posts I ran into on tumblr going "haha, after that barn scene, who's ship wins now, suck it D/C'ers" and IMO that dynamic is part of what makes this whole ship war so toxic. How can there be a right or wrong about fanon ships? Why does there have to be? I don't get it.

What kept me, personally, from commenting were comments like this one ("the thought of Destiel makes me sick to my stomach"). As well as your intentions might have been, I wouldn't trust someone who puts that sort of opinion out there to engage in a calm, reasonable conversation with me. :/


And I won't accept that they are any "less" a D/C shipper than someone on Tumblr or any where else because they chose to present their points - I would like to think they felt comfortable enough to feel safe there.
I'd never say that! They're probably just lucky enough that they didn't run into that much bullshit yet, based solely on what they ship, and I'm happy for them. Alas, I've been kicked in the stomach once too often to still be that optimistic about ship- or character-related fannish discussions.


About the difference between ~shipping something and thinking it will become canon... For me, shipping means that I WANT something happen, but I don't think there's much of a chance that TPTB will actually go there with a same-sex ship. I agree that they don't have the balls, and I'm rather positive that JA'd draw lines that prevent going through with it, or just with Dean going at it with any other guy. Not bashing, I just don't think he'd go along with it, which, let's be real, about half the guys in our generation wouldn't. Lastly TPTB are walking the line of trying to pander to both the D/C fandom as well as the brofans, and I don't think they'd tip over that, uh, I'm hesitant to call it balance. XD Which, IMO, is actually something that hurts the show more than does it good, but that's a topic for another day. ;)




Edited at 2013-05-22 05:32 pm (UTC)
23rd-May-2013 08:12 am (UTC)
Hi,

Thanks for this and I have to say I agree with all of it.

I don't know why D/C shippers are considered confrontational. It's certainly not what I meant when I said it would depend on how the comment was made. That goes for anyone commenting and responding. For me it was all about the issue be controversial, not the D/C shippers. It is a huge shame that it has caused such wank and nastiness. I can't disagree that it's spurred on by the wincest shippers. In all honesty I hardly see the confrontation between the D/C shippers and the Wincest ones because I am not involved in it. I have only recently become more active on Tumblr and now I am beginning to see it. It saddens me greatly and makes absolutely no sense to me.

That comment was confrontational and a red flag went up when I saw it. I did my best not to incite any wank and I think it was mostly ignored. I think staying away from a comment like that is the best course of action. Putting a separate case up, as others did, was a good way of jumping into the discussion though.

I'd never say that!

Oh no no, I wasn't suggesting you were. I was being my own devil's advocate. In my mind I was thinking that because this isn't a Tumblr discussion it's some how "less". I'm not sure where I got that idea - maybe the Tumblr v Lj thing.

And your points for why it won't happen are pretty much my own.I just can't see the CW or Jensen agreeing to it. And one of my personal points would be ...why? I would want to know what that would do for the story lines. I don't actually watch this show for the romance. If this show became about that relationship I would wonder what I had just tuned into (much the way I did when I was watching Sam/Amelia - and hence my "soapernatural vid). I would celebrate their decision to explore that side of Dean's character, but I really only what "saving people, hunting things" to be what I tune into. Now Cas being part of their family is something that I warm to, and family issues and dynamics is definitely part of the story I enjoy.

Which, IMO, is actually something that hurts the show more than does it good, but that's a topic for another day.

I agree. And yes indeed, that is a topic for another day. ;D
11th-Jun-2013 07:58 pm (UTC)
Ack, LJ wasn't letting me comment, then rl was being demanding... Sorry for not getting back to you on this. /o\
12th-Jun-2013 10:20 am (UTC)
Hey! It's cool hun. I really enjoyed the discussion. It was great to get another perspective. <333

(and me to about RL.../o\)
xx
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