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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
As Osric said... 
26th-Oct-2013 09:41 pm
Discussion / no weapons discharge
This may not be a "smart move".

But dang it, I'm home alone tonight and I've been wanting to chat about this so I'm posting it.

I am the kind of person who either likes to be blissfully unaware of anything controversial (which I have been in respect to the passion of destiel up until now) OR I want to be part of it so I can see and understand what's going on.

It's probably not fair that I post about destiel because I'm not a d/c shipper. Nor do I understand the full picture. But I am interested in it. Not just as a fan, but as a person trying to get to grips with perception, passion and why the hell someone from the Show won't settle this once and for all. This is the one thing that drives me nuts the most.

I have been reading the tweets and conversations surrounding the fall out from the last episode (seeming confirmation that destiel is not, and never has been, canon) and I keep coming back to the question of...Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?

I don't think it matters anymore about all the arguments surrounding destiel. This isn't about that. No matter what anyone says about it, it's opinion and perception and the chances are one will not persuade the other. But I don't think that matters. That's what fans do. We celebrate our show, ships and characters the way we want - we will disagree and all see different things. Whatever.

This is about Show people (Guy Bee, Chad Kennedy, Misha Collins, Ben Edlund, Osric Chau) making statements about it. (I find it absolutely fascinating that we now have a direct line to Show makers. We can, essentially, text them. We can rant and bitch and complain (even congratulate!) and they SEE that - and sometimes respond).

What seems to have been happening is that there has been a shit tonne of teasing, innuendo and suggestions that destiel does exist. Misha seems to be one of the biggest culprits. That's not an issue if everyone is one the same page about it. As in - that there's an understanding between fans, actors, producers and writers that they are all talking about the same thing.

A good example is the way they approach Wincest. With wincest BOTH the fans and the Show know it will never happen. The incest taboo is too huge a barrier to cross so everyone knows that's never going to happen on the show. Everyone is on the same page. Even the show itself mentions the subject - jokes about it and confirms it's "ewwww" (Monster at the End of This Book) and we can all get back to never having to worry about whether it will happen or not. We can ship it to our hearts content - WE know, and the Show has confirmed we'll never see Sam and Dean kiss. They can break forth walls, get them having meaningful hugs and have them declare never ending love to each other.

But destiel IS a possibility. There's no reason why Dean and Cas can't become a romantic couple (unless inter-species is a taboo) so the joking, teasing and innuendo doesn't work the same way. "Hints" become evidence. Putting in scenes where two men fall in love right before Cas and Dean's eyes (Sacrifice) is foreshadowing their future relationship. The only problem is the writers (et al) don't seem to be making the same connections that fans do - that every time they present a scene like that they are not enjoying it along with the destiel fans, but rather - taking them for a ride.

After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?

Or can they? They are not fans. They are writers, directors, producers and actors. They don't think like we do. They probably don't understand the utter passion that we feel for these characters. Osric is possibly the closest "fan", but even then I don't think he understands it on the same level. I particularly think this for directors - especially Guy. He comes in, directs an episode (and in his case very few with Cas) and goes off and directs another show).

Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms. I don't understand the Sterek ship for example. I can see it. I can imagine all the possibilities, but if I was a writer for the show I'd say - that's what the fans see, but this is what I am writing. Talk to anyone who isn't passionately involved with a fandom. You can't explain it. Even to yourself it doesn't make a whole heap of sense. People involved in this show aren't fans. They might love the show, but that's different to the way we completely wrap ourselves in it.

I'm not sure how much of an impact the destiel fans have on the show. It looks like the show might be attempting to make it obvious that d/c are not a romantic couple (Cas having sex with a woman, Dean being happy that Cas had sex with a woman and then Dean telling him he has to leave the bunker). But why won't someone have the balls to, once and for all, make it absolutely clear if they intend to make this couple a couple. Surely it will save a lot of pain in the future. It's a simple statement - "Yes, we are heading in that direction". Or "no, we are not". I'd like to see them stop the "it's a possibility". (Seriously!), And saying "it's obvious" (either way) doesn't work. I don't think it is obvious anymore.

(Answering my own question: As with Wincest, they are doing it through the show. Or maybe they just don't realise how much of an impact this is having on a lot of fans. Perhaps they actually do like teasing it out - having some fun, whilst thinking "they know it's never going to happen - so it's not hurting anyone").

The posts I have referenced in this:

The Daily Dot A good summary of the whole thing.

Osric's Tweet

Guy Bee's tweet

Misha's stuff

A case for destiel (opened my eyes. Don't ship it, but I can see why some do).

Can I just emphasise that this is not about whether destiel exists, or what the arguments are for it existing or not. I've read quite a bit and I can clearly see arguments for both (and the more involved I get the more I see "profound bond" meaning EXACTLY that. A bond that transcends sex and friendship. It's complex and meaningful and still on it's journey - it's quite possibly a reinvention of a male relationship). I'm just curious why TPTB are playing (or probably not playing ) this game. I'm wondering if this is as close as we'll get to confirmation that it's not and will never be canon (personally....pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue) and I wonder if any other show (Haven and Teen Wolf come to mind) where fans are so, um, vocal in their ship to The Powers That Be. Or do they just accept that even though the homoerotic text can be seen, it's understood that that's all it is.
26th-Oct-2013 01:57 pm (UTC)
Well this is definitely confirmation I am on the outskirts of fandom! I had nooooo idea all this was going on.
26th-Oct-2013 02:09 pm (UTC)
Hee...you have to be looking for it maybe. Not that I am specifically but I find it so interesting (I have no idea why!). I think because I'm on tumblr and twitter and see all this stuff and then try and make sense of it. Since the last episode I have been resisting posting anything ('cause damn, I'm probably in for it...), but tonight I had enough to drink the urge. :))

And hey you! Are you still watching? You should come to a watching fest one day if you are.
26th-Oct-2013 02:08 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I agree so much. Well, you know I ship Destiel, but this whole idea that it's time for tptb to say if it's not going to happen.

My brain keeps saying, it's gone so far now that the only rational reason they wouldn't say anything for sure is if they are going that way and don't want to spoil it. Yay, my shipper brain thinks.

Then these asses come on twitter and are all like, "huh? Where's this all coming from? Never heard of it! What's a ship?" F*ck, my shipper brain thinks. That's that, then. Meanwhile, in the episode itself, Dean is touching Castiel like this and the fandom gets whiplash.

Then Osric & Misha chime in with thoughtful if still far from definitive statements. Misha's "You're not crazy" is actually slightly hopeful but possibly not. It's vague enough to be reassuring but not actually an indication of canon intentions.

People point out that Guy Norman Bee and Chad Kennedy need not know anything about the story or where it's going. Okay, some hope again. But throughout all this there's a resounding silence from Carver or anyone with real authority to say yes or no.

So we're back where we started wondering what the hell is going on.

I think it's interesting that even people outside Destiel fandom, like yourself, are saying it's time for tptb to commit either way. It's wrecking the experience of fandom and the show for so many people. They need to go one way or the other and stop f*cking people around, basically.
26th-Oct-2013 02:20 pm (UTC)
Hey, thank you so much for stopping by. I was so desperately not wanting to make this about whether the ship exists or not - rather...it's time TPTB say something.

It's weird for me only hearing about destiel during the last year or so - and all the discussion about it looking like it's going to be canon. It naturally makes me want to investigate. I've read things from both shippers and non shippers a like and it seems that there's some compassion about the way this has been handled.

I don't know. They are either deliberately shying away from it or honestly don't understand it. I can't figure it out.
26th-Oct-2013 02:24 pm (UTC)
I am going to preface this by saying that I am not only someone that works in the television industry, but also that my best work friend is the head of PR for the network(s), so I can be a bit frank on the behind the scenes aspect of it.

First of all, set aside the notion that making a TV show is some selfless artistic endeavor--it's not. It's a business. And like any business, selling the product to your consumer is a dance that is considered and oft-shifted daily. That being said, the best thing that can happen to a business is people talking about that business. In TV, that's even more so. So any faction that is loud and semi-organized and willing to pimp, talk, complain about, or idolize your show in the public sphere is going to be pandered to in some way. Why? Because these things are cylindrical and the day they hate something will turn into the next day when they love something.

So why does Carver/Singer/Glass not come right out and say "lolno"? Because they don't have to. Because even the inkling of "hope" from a carefully worded tweet from Misha or a nod thrown into a scene is going to be enough to keep most of the overly invested going. The day you say "never" is the day that hope dies.

Another reason why they don't come right out and put a stop to it? Because of the exact reaction that happened the other night. Finally, there was a high level exec with the balls (or stupid enough) to be honest with the intentions (or lack thereof) of the show, and these people almost committed mass hara-kiri. The savvier people that run the show knew a reaction like that is imminent, so they stay quiet and play the game that is the show in show business.

And finally, no matter what your headcanon or my fanfic says, Dean Winchester is canonically straight, something that could have so easily been changed in a season like S3 if Kripke had intended him that way. He's said it before that he "doesn't swing that way" and has never given a serious inkling that he's anything other than straight. Does that upset some people because they want to claim Dean for themselves? Sure, but that's not Dean's or the writers' fault. And frankly? The things that people use as "proof" of Dean's bisexuality (fangirling Dr. Sexy, not screaming "HOW DARE YOU!" at someone hitting on him, having a deep friendship with a guy, ~looking at Cas like that --ignoring the same way he looks at Sam) are on the verge of insulting and, if we're being honest here, the same kind of "proof" used by tinhats to claim J2 are/were fucking. They say they don't want to be queer-baited, but when Jensen calls Dean a "heterosexual" at a convention, suddenly he doesn't know what he's talking about. The martyrdom has selective hearing, I suppose.

Moral of the story--ship whoever you want! Fandom is awesome most of the time and an outlet that people don't get in their normal lives. Embrace it, enjoy it, let it be fun! But remember that, in the end, tumblr is not a Nielsen box, and as long as those 2.3 million regular viewers who are like my boyfriend and watch it for the hot car and action and nonsensical plot keep watching (and Smallville was strong until the end, so there's no reason to think they won't), then Carver and Singer are going to do what they've been doing, and write whatever the fuck they want.

Sorry this is long. Now I'm off to my baby niece's birthday party and forgetting fandom and this show exists for the day lol
26th-Oct-2013 02:44 pm (UTC)
Thankyou, that is perfectly said. They are screaming for someone to say it but ignore that someone has said it. No one has every said anything of the sort that they are having a story like Dean being Bi or Gay. Dean cares about everyone, looks out for everyone, is upset when someone dies, I would be too. To use all this as an excuse for a romantic/sexual encounter?

Jensen has said it numerous times. But again like you said, they choose to ignore that and focus on the Misha and Osric tweets to 'comfort them' and to bag out the ones that said NO. Guy has essentially said NO. The WB exec has said NO. The show itself has said no. The destiel fans want the execs and writers to crawl inside their head and understand the way they see whats on the real life show of Supernatural and explain to them something that they do not see!

They could come out and say 'no it doesn't exist' but that means they are validating an interpretation that they do not see themselves and the examples that the destielers give are not what the scenes are about at all.

Phone calls about jobs or to protect Sam are interpreted that Dean is in love with Castiel, prayers are all because he misses Castiel. He wants his brother to live. Castiel being asked to leave the bunker is suppoed to be all about Castiel. Infact its all about Sam!

They are trying to tell a story, they can't help the way you inteprete scenes when you think that Dean is gay for Castiel and his every motion and thought has to be about that. Its fanfiction! Why is that so hard to understand by themselves without having to have it said by the writers and actors more than once.

JENSEN HAS SAID IT! Bob has said that this show is about Dean and Sam Winchester! Carver is all about the brothers. S8 was all about the boys being together on the same page. Did none of them watch the boys scenes or figure that when Dean was praying it was actually for his brother.

Its insane to think that Destiel fans are even 1% of this fandom, I know 5 people personally that don't even know what these people would be talking about, they aren't online and don't care to be but love the story of SPN. Supernatural was never about romantic situations what makes them think that tptb would start a story about that now anyhow!
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
26th-Oct-2013 02:49 pm (UTC)
I was aware this was happening, but not how far it had gone. When I found out it made me long for the days when slash and fanfic were kept secret.

1 - This is not HBO, it's the CW. They are not the Network that is going to break new ground by airing a show with a gay couple as action heroes.

2 - Even considering that the CW is the same Network that airs such crap-fests as Next Top Model, Supernatural has been amazingly successful in introducing gay characters that are positive representations. Charlie is awesome, reoccurring and not dead yet. Which around here is pretty damn impressive.

3 - Gay characters that are positive representations - Dean Winchester ain't it. I adore him, but Seriously??? Does anyone thing it's going to help the LGBT community to have a previously straight, heavily-armed, chronically depressed, alcoholic representing them?

Edited at 2013-10-26 02:51 pm (UTC)
26th-Oct-2013 03:03 pm (UTC)
Does anyone thing it's going to help the LGBT community to have a previously straight, heavily-armed, chronically depressed, alcoholic representing them?

Do HUMANS want our lovely DW representing him?! That poor boy...

And yeah, there's evidence for and against. I mostly see the for, but some of the against stuff is compelling also. It makes me wonder just how aware they are of what they are doing.
26th-Oct-2013 03:05 pm (UTC)
After 9.03 some destiel fans wanted to know what was going on and it seems (from what I've read) that people from the show have come out and said "what are you talking about?". Even..."what's a ship?". There seems to be some ignorance about the whole destiel thing. On the one hand it's absolutely no surprise but on the other hand it's...WTF?! I can only take a personal view on not seeing destiel (rather a loving friendship/male bond) and therefore not surprised but also...COME ON! Surely they can't be that ignorant of this ship? Surely they have to have known what they were playing with?
Maybe it's because I'm not a Dean/Cas fan and never have been but I'm 100% with the writers there. TBH I can't see where this whole destiel movement came from, like, really, people? How is it there are so many of you? D: And in the beginning I thought wincest shippers were crazy. I just don't see the character of Cas, I don't see where the writers can go with the angel, especially now that Castiel isn't an angel anymore. I think it is actually obvious that there's no future for Dean/Cas as a romantic couple or whatever (or yeah, maybe it's cause I'm not a fan). I think the writers just genuinely don't see it either and that's why there's no statements on that. Plus I'm 100% sure the creators of The Show won't cross this line, not in this life and not in this century.

Or maybe it's because after the writers started to make Castiel more human the character was lost to me - I liked the idea of an angel on Dean's shoulder, but now I can't even sit through one whole scene with only Castiel :\ Plus there's never been precedents before, like, it's not like Dean to have someone - except for Sam - he opened up to. Even Kevin, family, as we saw - I can't picture Dean telling Kevin what's on his mind. But then again Dean and Cas do share this profound bond.

I guess I can understand why people ship it, or at least try - I mean everyone has their ships right? I know someone who shipped Jo and Kat from 1x10 - but personally? Never have I seen it on the show and not sure if I ever will :\ I'm not against it, ship what you like, I'm just always dumfounded when I cross paths with destiel fans *shrugs*
26th-Oct-2013 03:21 pm (UTC)
Firstly..*glomps* all over you! HI!

Yeah, I think it's pretty hard to understand when you don't see it. I can't help but see it these days (and not because I actually see it, but every time they share the screen I'm looking for it...). One of the links above gives a really good example of where it comes from.

I think in most cases we keep the ship stuff to ourselves, but with the invention of twitter (and wow, so many famous people love that thing!), it means the people that make these shows are so easily accessible. I think they've been quite shell shocked with the out pouring of passion.

For me, I don't see any ships on the show that aren't blatantly obvious (Jess/Sam, Dean/Lisa etc). The others are just delicious to have fun with. ;))

*smish* ('cause I don't get the chance to do that much..;D)
26th-Oct-2013 03:15 pm (UTC)
Ahem. I will preface this by saying I don't like Cas most of the time, and I really don't ship Dean/Cas. I also think the behaviour of some (not all by any means; probably only a small minority) of the D/C shippers is pretty appalling. Like you, I only really started paying attention recently, and the level of entitlement and anger on display (and particularly being directed towards the writers/directors) is incomprehensible to me, and I say that as someone who is absolutely crazy about this show.

And with that out of the way...I agree entirely with tebtosca. Of course the PTB aren't going to actively kill off the dedication of such vocal proponents of the show. And even if they were so inclined, seriously, after the backlash they've experienced just because an *episode* of the show didn't go the way the D/C fans wanted? Can you imagine what would blow up if they actually confirmed it wasn't going to be canon?

I also suspect that the show runners (and Misha, possibly) have been under the same impression that it's no different from wincest -- something they tease us about, but that's never going to happen. And I don't know that that's an unreasonable baseline to be working from. Dean's had two romantic relationships that canonically meant something to him, and both have been with women. He routinely flirts with and comments on the attractiveness of women, and every sexual encounter he's had on show has been with a woman. That's pretty strong confirmation of his canonical preferences. The hints for his bisexuality are reader interpretation only, and they're really not all that obvious -- I doubt they're obvious *at all* to people who aren't looking for them. The weird thing here would be if he suddenly ended up in a relationship with Cas. I guarantee 90% of the viewership would be absolutely blindsided if that happened, and not without cause.

Even taking sex out of it, in interviews, most people emphasise that the show is about Sam and Dean. Jensen, in particular, routinely mentions that the show is about their relationship, that Dean's happiest when he's got a hunt and Sam at his side, etc., etc. And the show sells that narrative too -- Dean's stupid and self-destructive acts have almost always been in service of Sam. Around the edges of that, there's stuff for fandom to have fun with and take further, but again, like tebtosca says, the people who want to feel victimised and oppressed are viewing things through a very, very selective lens.
(Deleted comment)
26th-Oct-2013 03:26 pm (UTC)
Thank you for making this post and for attempting to be objective about the issue. Thanks for the links, too. IMO, though, there can be a case made for any ship on any show. It doesn't mean that it's going to happen on the show.

As tebtosca said, Dean is not canonically queer and TPTB are not suddenly going to make him gay after nine years. I ship Sam/Dean so obviously my opinion on the issue isn't going to be objective, and like you, I don't think it's fair of me to even really talk about a part of fandom that I'm not familiar with. But from what I've seen of the argument for D/C becoming canon, what makes me the most uncomfortable is the accusation that if the writers don't make D/C canon, they're somehow homophobic. I don't think the showrunners are required in any way to respond to what some fans think should happen on the show.

pleeeease, I want this to stop being an issue

This, so much. I just want to go back to enjoying my show without having to fear what I'm going to find if I check the SPN tag on tumblr.
27th-Oct-2013 12:49 am (UTC)
I AM trying to be objective about it - which is difficult when I come from a certain standpoint. I want to understand both sides of the story and even though I don't ship these two I got a taste of what some have been feeling.

there can be a case made for any ship on any show. It doesn't mean that it's going to happen on the show.

Agreed. :)

what makes me the most uncomfortable is the accusation that if the writers don't make D/C canon, they're somehow homophobic.

This above everything upsets me the most. I've been accused of being homophobic and it's very upsetting. Especially when it's not even remotely true.

I just want to go back to enjoying my show without having to fear what I'm going to find if I check the SPN tag on tumblr.

That's exactly it for me too. I know I haven't aided things by posting this (and highlighting the troubles), but it does help me work through what's going on an put it into some perspective.

26th-Oct-2013 04:53 pm (UTC)
I'm going to respond before I read all the comments; which I will! and THANK you for yet again daring to host a conversation that has wank potention-which likely won't go there because, yeah, it's *here!. I almost posted about this myself yesterday, but chickened out. I've read through all the links yesterday after I first learned this had exploded. And I need coffee. And I have photos to develop from a shoot that are overdue, yada, yada, yada.

First "reinvention of a male relationship" <-- I like this. Maybe tweeking it to something like a resurrection of what a male relationship may have been before the 1950s (or before???) when things got all squirrelly around Males NOT HAVING FEELINGS.

For me the following are my thoughts on this (not necessarily in particular order).

- Regardless of the question of is there subtext for Destiel or not (which I know is not what you are addressing), I think for any two (or more?? hee) people on any show that have some form of intense relationship, there is *always* subtext for more for fans to explore. And for me that's what this really boils down to it's for fans to explore. Someone elsewhere I read yesterday pointed out that usually relationships on other shows that become canon - more or less ruin that pair on that show (x-files, cheers, etc.) Anyway I know that's not your point with this post, but I feel kinda strongly about it. I'd always been very meh before about arguments regarding whether the writers/etc should be influenced by fans to change the story. It just wasn't something I had a real opinion on. Until now. And not because of Destiel itself, but because the passionate discussions are happening in *my* fandom that I'm a bit obsessed with, so I care enough to read through all the stuff and I begin to see/understand how TPTB and fan interactions might actually have a downside. I think I'm beginning to come down into the camp of let TPTB tell their story and let fandom play with it within our own playground. A few hints and break-4th-wall nods are okay, on occasion, but not too much.

- As to what I think you are really posting about, whether TBTB should make some *statement* because whether intentionally or not, there is a part of fandom that are interpreting items as going in a certain direction.... Man, I thought I knew what I was going to say here. But it's tough! Which is partly why I started with my first point. Part of me thinks that no, TPTB, should not make any statements because: see first point. But then I find myself wondering. If this was say a male/female dynamic, would TPTB make some strong hints or other statements? And you know? I think they would. So perhaps they should here.

(omigosh I've NEVER had to break a comment into two parts, wow!)
26th-Oct-2013 04:54 pm (UTC)
I'm really struggling with the fact that I do NOT see subtext for Destiel at all. And I've looked at all the posts about it from the Destiel side (a lot of posts) and I still don't see it. Which I know is not the point. And doesn't mean that I don't support anyone else who DOES see it. Ship and let ship and all. And to paraphrase, "I may not agree with your ship, but I will fight to the death (well not exactly, but whatever, heh) your right to ship it." And then I think of all the hetero relationships that became romantic in canon and how those relationships were just RUINed because of it and often the show itself was ruined because of it. And I just don't WANT it to happen. Because I LIKE Cas and Dean. I love their dynamic. I love the "profound bond" and how you interpreted it above.

So everytime I think about this I get in a muddle because of what I just said.

However, to get back to your question. Should TPTB acknowledge? Make some statement? Is this the brave new world that social media and shows and fandom is evolving to and SPN gets to help set the stage for how it will develop? We've been one of the trailblazers for TPTB and fan interaction. In the past I've often thought that if someone writes a book in the future about the evolution of fandom, it should include bits about social media and use SPN fandom as a case study. Maybe the way to look at this is as an opportunity for WB, CW, and Carver (and Kripke?) to define some kind of foundation/precedent for this type of situation. Although I know there are already rules within TPTB about social media, but perhaps this calls for a different approach? A new one?

Of course if they ever do say something, my hope would be that it would be something along the lines of the profound bond and re-interpretation of an intense (non-romantic) male relationship. But then I get all sad because I *know* how intense some feel about this and how painful that would likely be for them. And I just want us all to get along, you know? (Yesterday, I kept wondering if this was our fandom's American Civil War - sister against sister, etc. Made me so sad.)

Muddy comment, but these are my thoughts.
26th-Oct-2013 05:26 pm (UTC)
Obviously I can't speak for queer fans, but I think that the conflation of ACTUAL queer representation issues with SHIPPING preferences by straight people is tacky verging on disgusting.

Simply imagine if the genders of all this were switched, and it was a bunch of straight men urging TV executives to make a so-called lesbian ship canon (one that involved a self-proclaimed heterosexual character) and then claiming that they wanted to see it on screen so that their queer friends were well-represented? Who in the world would believe them?

(Haha, actually, that might work. Huge groups of dudes are traditionally hard to dismiss. Maybe we can start a kickstarter to pay guys to advocate for our ships.)

Of course, that all being said, I kind of wish they'd make Destiel canon just so we could validate the power of the female consumer. Also because it would be hot. But I'm not going to try and represent my desire as a social justice move. It would be simply because I like getting what I want.

Edited at 2013-10-26 05:36 pm (UTC)
26th-Oct-2013 08:56 pm (UTC)
Simply imagine if the genders of all this were switched, and it was a bunch of straight men urging TV executives to make a so-called lesbian ship canon

This would be a fascinating social experiment!
26th-Oct-2013 06:18 pm (UTC)
I don't have much to add to the whole discussion that hasn't already been more eloquently added in the comments above. I'm glad that Jensen isn't available on twitter. Twitter is that two-edged sword that people with a public persona carry very carefully and try hard not to fall on. Like I'm figuring out about myself this last week, it's really easy to put your foot in it when you're cranked up about something or having a bad day. When you're being followed by 10,000 people who also have days like that, it's bound to get messy. Add to that people that like to stir the pot for whatever reason and it can get really ugly. I'm sorry people on both sides are ending up feeling hurt. I don't think this topic is going to go away though. I hope things are civil at the con this weekend.

On a much lighter note, I'm glad Osric gave us the visual of Jensen shouting thank you at the router.
27th-Oct-2013 01:32 am (UTC)
I'm glad that Jensen isn't available on twitter

It's something I've often thought too. :)

And yes to all that about twitter. It's all of those things and I am sure there are some who going in, stir up the pot and then sit back and enjoy the drama. though I think there were also a lot of emotions running very high.

Oh man..there's a con this weekend? I hope everyone is nice also. I'd be really interested to know how many in the con audience participate in on-line fandom. At the one con I went to I sat next to a girl and asked her is she was on-line and she said something like "no, I have a life". Hee...oookay then. Though it opened my eyes that not all fans would even know about all this (i'll be interested to see what happens during the con).

Ha and yay Osric! I can just imagine Jensen doing that (he's a sensible boy, keeping his distance).
26th-Oct-2013 06:50 pm (UTC)
I think it's been too long that I've followed fandom to really react anymore, from way before SPN. I saw the episode, I knew something would be happening and went on tumblr. It felt a bit like being a scientist and studying a strange culture in their native environment. A strange culture currently engaged in a civil war.
Clearing that up from the start, if the fans really could decide who would end up with whom, I wouldn't want canon Destiel for a number of reasons. And none of them have anything to do with the fact that I'm not a shipper.
In no particular order
1. Trying to force a couple to happen just because you ship it is one of the most imature things I've ever seen in Fandom. And I hang around the Harry Potter fandom
2. Reasoning about LGBT representation. Yes, Dean would be a great bi character. I won't say anything about Castiel because despite his form, he doesn't actually have a gender and just identifies his pronouns according to his vessel. I'm all for a better LGBT representation in media, but the vast majority of destiel shippers who bring this argument don't care for LGBT representation, they just think they would be hot together. Own up to your motivations. Would you still be onboard with this ship if the people in question looked like Marty Feldman and Clint Howard?
And even if they made Dean bi, why would it have to be Castiel?
3. This idea that a deep meaningful relationship has to be sexual. Cas held Deans soul. Literally. Sure trumps sex
4. But the Show did this/the actor told that: doesn't matter. Live with it. That's what fanfiction is for.
5. Their canon relationship is both one of family as of Dean being a teacher to Cas. Throwing a romantic angle into it would seriously mess that up
6. The show writers are great at varying types of genre, which makes the show so interesting. Believable and realistic romance is not one of them
26th-Oct-2013 08:58 pm (UTC)
I have to wonder what would happen if TPTB decided to make Sam bi, and fall for Castiel or Kevin or WHOMEVER. *muses*
26th-Oct-2013 08:25 pm (UTC)
I've been following this all somewhat distantly, and finding myself a bit bemused. I'm reminded of a quote from one of my favourite stories, James Thurber's The Thirteen Clock. The hero of the story is a Prince who wants to rescue a maiden from the clutches of an evil Duke, and he is assisted in this quest by the Golux - "The only Golux in the world, and not a mere device!" They have this conversation:

"When I was young I told a tale of buried gold, and men from leagues around dug in the woods. I dug myself."

"But why?"

"I thought the tale of treasure might be true."

"You said you made it up."

"I know I did, but then I didn't know I had."

It's fine to engage in lit-crit analyses of shows to prove whatever points make one happy, but there is a difference between that and believing the showrunners are sending you coded messages.

26th-Oct-2013 11:05 pm (UTC)
That story is perfect.

26th-Oct-2013 08:32 pm (UTC)
Why doesn't someone (possibly Carver) make a statement about whether Dean and Cas are indeed being developed as a romantic couple or not?

IMO they don't want to piss off a large, VOCAL segment of their fans who talk about the show a lot. Call it buzz, call it controversy, call it what ever you want, but a lot of the crew, writers, etc from the show actually string these fans along with "be patient," "their relationship is more than friends," favoriting Destiel tweets, "you can see whatever you want and it's not my job to tell you what to feel." One of them was even soliciting Destiel fanfic to read.

They want the buzz and the polls and magazine articles. If and when those Destiel fans turn on the show, those things will get really nasty and ugly. So they string them along and will do it till the show is cold and dead in syndication. I don't think Carver et al are brave enough, to be honest.
27th-Oct-2013 11:54 am (UTC)
It makes me sad to think that this would be the case. I know that it's all about creating buzz and I kind of get that - it's how it works, but I wonder just how much of a difference it would make, say, to the continuation of the show. Out of the 2mil + people tuning in each week, I wonder how many are watching, waiting for destiel to become canon. Maybe this week's ratings might reflect a dip if what they did in the last ep really did piss enough people off. I also think that there was a huge buzz before destiel was even a consideration.

26th-Oct-2013 09:24 pm (UTC)
I've watched the show since the beginning, I don't ship anything or anyone on the show. Honestly, I don't see any queerbaiting either - questionably distasteful gay innuendo for cheap jokes? Yep, they've always been a bit guilty about that, but nothing to me has ever indicated the possibility that Dean and Castiel are interested in each other romantically. No amount of meta or interpretation of the text will ever convince me it's there, but if you have the tendency to wonder 'what if' or are attracted to those two characters on the show, then, yeah, you will agree with the meta and add you're own interpretation to the show as you watch. Some see Wincest, some see Destiel and some lucky buggers can see the romance ship of both relationships and more, it's just how we are, we're different, we see things or we don't.

I don't think TPTB should make a statement, I don't think they owe any particular group an explanation or a projection of where their characters are going. It's not in their interests to basically shut down the fantasies of a portion of their fan base, not all Dean/Cas shippers think they are owed an explanation and are happy with their ship in fandom. Is it fair that Wincesters know their ship won't become canon and the Destiel crowd don't? Well, I don't see the Wincesters campaigning to have Sam or Dean become an adopted child so their ship can come true as it would twist the whole foundations of the show. For those of us who don't see Destiel and have no interest in it whatsoever (yes, we're obviously blind or something) making it canon would be the same shocking whiplash and fundamental change to well known characters.

Basically I see fandom as one huge game of "The Emperor's Clothes meets Chinese Whispers" - the more you talk about it, the clearer it gets and more fans will see it, but often the further away from the actual show roots and canon it gets Never underestimate the willingness to be convinced of evidence if it's presented in a way that strikes deeply into our hearts. I know of many Wincesters that came to the show never, ever intending to ship two brothers and now are deeply immersed and happy with their incest ship. Fan works and metas are that good. It doesn't and shouldn't matter if TPTB agree, disagree or are horrified by fandom because basically they aren't in fandom. The show to them is business, their work, their insight is not the same, as insiders it's impossible to block out their knowledge of the show to see it as we do.

With social media though, we now have common play grounds, it's new and sometimes great and sometimes bloody awful, but we're not on the same teams. A little more respect from both sides would go a long way, but like everything that's new, we're struggling to find rules we can all live with and boundaries are never very clear at times like this, feelings run high and fingers type faster than our common sense can reel us in. But such is the nature of fandom, we feel, we love, we care, we get angry and we get hurt,. Yes, and so do TPTB,(actors, writers, crew) but it's like communicating in different languages. They are not us, don't presume they understand the nuances of fandom and how fandom in turn interprets their show.
27th-Oct-2013 12:19 pm (UTC)
Hey darlin,

I don't think TPTB should make a statement, I don't think they owe any particular group an explanation or a projection of where their characters are going.

Yeah, and I honestly think they'll never do it. I suppose I just have this little dream that this could be settled once and for all - which wouldn't mean anyone would have to stop shipping their favourite ship (which I've seen some people say - which I don't get because, essentially, nothing would change), but it might just halt some future pain. But, then again, who's to say that having hope isn't part of the fun of enjoying the show. I don't know...

It doesn't and shouldn't matter if TPTB agree, disagree or are horrified by fandom because basically they aren't in fandom.

Yeah. Exactly. It's why I honestly feel that it's just not a major thing for them. Even with the recent twitter mess, they are hopefully just getting on with their jobs and thinking about the next story (and maybe checking over the script for actual canon slip up..;D)

we're struggling to find rules we can all live with and boundaries are never very clear at times like this,

So much this. It's something that I am fascinated by. It's happened so quickly that it's taken people by surprise. The thing I haven't really worked out about twitter is why famous people feel like they need to have one. I feel like it's some ego thing - which I'm not saying is a problem, healthy egos are good - it's just that I think it creates a power that some famous people haven't worked out how to use yet. Ack - I'm not articulating this very well. I'll wait for someone one to write their thesis on it. ;)

Yes, and so do TPTB,(actors, writers, crew) but it's like communicating in different languages.

That's how I see it too. We can all talk about this thing called "slash", and even though we all know its definition I think our meaning of it differs (or certainly what it means to each of us).

Thanks for popping in hun. <33

26th-Oct-2013 10:32 pm (UTC)
Above all, what this has shown is that as much as Show (incorporating everyone involved in it) embraces fandom they don't really understand it. They are not fans. Personally I wouldn't understand it either if I hadn't fallen head over heals for this show. I don't understand other fandoms.

I don't think that anyone understands Destielers except for other Destielers. ;) But seriously, it's the same with shippers of any pair or people outside a certain fandom, not to mention that fans see the end result on our screens differently than the people who worked on it. I'm not a Cas/Dean fan and I just can't see it in Show. I mean, I can understand how some people would be drawn to that pairing, but personally, I can't see any canon evidence for it no matter how I try. I didn't even realize that the events in 9x03 would cause the kind of stir that they apparently did, because I saw nothing to warrant something like what happened. Actually, I still don't know the full extent of what happened because I like my little corner of the fandom to be peaceful.

However, I definitely understand TPTBs not making a statement because--like comments above this say--it would alienate a part of the fans, and also because a statement like that would possibly cause more stir in ways that they never meant to. Like, maybe someone would tell the destielers then 'I told you so' and they would feel the need to defend themselves and then the in-house fighting would start and no one would be happy anymore. And I sort of dislike the idea that the people working on the show would have to make a statement just because some people can't behave. Rude, entitled behavior should be called out, not indulged, even though in this case it could save writers, directors etc. from comments that they really don't deserve. However, it's hard for TPTBs to directly call out fans' bad behavior because that would cause another kind of stir, so understandably they opt for not saying anything.

Destielers are free to ship Dean/Cas, but acting rude towards the crew when their demands for making it canon are not met crosses the line. Ship and let ship. (I know that it's probably a vocal minority of Dean/Cas shippers who are acting badly towards the crew and I'm sad for the destielers who do know how to act.)
27th-Oct-2013 12:42 pm (UTC)
I still don't know the full extent of what happened because I like my little corner of the fandom to be peaceful.

I know what you mean. :) I prefer it too (hee - even though I sometimes make these controversial posts).

After the episode I was interested to see if there was any fall out from Dean telling Cas to leave (and Cas sleeping with a woman) so I went looking. I was intrigued by the twitter stuff and discovered that there had been a few dramas. Which then meant I wanted to talk about it - hence posting some thoughts. :)

And everyone has had such great stuff to say and I feel like I have a better understanding why TPTB won't come out and make a statement. Though, from what I've read, many of the d/c shippers feel like they have been treated very badly even from the few comments that had been made about destiel not existing. So yeah - a firm confirmation probably wouldn't do anyone any favours - just create more resentment (though I think the resentment is pretty strong at the moment).

The rudeness was very unfortunate - obviously emotions running very high. Osric seemed to take it fairly personally (on behalf of the writers) so hence his long tweet. It's a shame it came to that. I know that it's only a small group of people, but things like that seem to blow out and end up being bigger than it needed to be.

It'll be interesting to see what happens now.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. :)

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