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just enough to make us dangerous
A quick question re S9... 
5th-Dec-2013 08:35 pm
Sam I Am (not)


So Heaven has no angels. But it still has souls yes? Ash is still up there serving beers?

The angels seems to like "order" so does that mean anarchy now reigns in Heaven? And what exactly did all those angels do up there? Just fight amongst themselves? They must have been pretty bored, so I suppose that would explain why they pick fights - light entertainment.

I know we're not meant to think too hard about these things, but I feel like the billions of souls that must be up there have been forgotten in this storyline (or did I miss a crucial bit of info when I was tuning out of the angel stuff?). Maybe souls just exist in their own little worlds and that's that (ooh, maybe angels help create each persons "heaven"? So without them those souls might be lost). Even on an administrative level Heaven must be a bit of a mess now.

So that ended up being more than one quick question. oooops
Comments 
5th-Dec-2013 01:00 pm (UTC)
That's kinda funny 'cause that did cross my mind during the ep but strangely was worried about Ash too. Not Ellen or Jo or Bobby...Just Ash. Maybe be he'd be the one creating the anarchy. He'd totally be the one poking it with a stick or taking it apart to see how it works, up there!
Would not at all be surprised if we see him as the inside man at some point.
In my brain I was just assuming/hoping that the souls would be in their happy places and wouldn't know or maybe care that stuff was different, and that the angel bit of heaven was separate to the souls bit.
Being that there's a heavy SPN character presence up there I hope that some of the team might be able to lend a hand from the other side...

I wonder what Kevin's slice of heaven looks like? :_( x
6th-Dec-2013 01:44 pm (UTC)
Hi,

In my brain I was just assuming/hoping that the souls would be in their happy places and wouldn't know or maybe care that stuff was different,

Yeah, I suppose they could be in different places. Maybe there's so much bureaucracy because they have to keep the angels and the souls separate or something.

And actually, I'm rather happy that Kevin might be in heaven - perhaps with his mom and long dead girl friend. Better life than he had on earth after he became the prophet.
6th-Dec-2013 02:51 pm (UTC)
Maybe he gets to open his acceptance letter to Princeton over and over : ) See now I actually feel much better about Kevin as he was profoundly miserable...although thinking about it, it would be just his luck to get killed and to get to heaven and it be all kinds of awful up there...oh no : ( x
7th-Dec-2013 02:32 am (UTC)
it would be just his luck to get killed and to get to heaven and it be all kinds of awful up there...oh no

haha…oh yes. Poor Kevin. He can't catch a break. :(
5th-Dec-2013 03:24 pm (UTC)
Obviously, this answer will be retconned eventually (*waves to Carver*) but I'm pretty sure that the human souls are still up there doing their thing. During the heaven episode, you didn't really see the angels unless it was someone like Zachariah coming out to fuck with the Winchesters. It seems like the human souls are stuck in their little boxes and are a separate entity from where the angels were.

As for who creates the heaven...well, Metatron is the storyteller, right?

But really though, lolcanon
6th-Dec-2013 01:48 pm (UTC)
but I'm pretty sure that the human souls are still up there doing their thing

Yeah, I gotta assume souls are doing their thing up there - even without angels around. Hmmm…maybe it's the new souls that are having trouble.

I'd be surprised if we ever see Heaven again (though…maybe). I think they are more concerned with angels doing stuff on earth than whats happening in Heaven atm.

As for who creates the heaven...well, Metatron is the storyteller, right?

Indeed. And maybe he can rewrite his own version of Heaven…

Hehe… I like lolcanon. It works of me!!! :DD
5th-Dec-2013 04:07 pm (UTC)
Same questions crossed my mind, too. I'm trying not to think too much about it as there are a gazillion possibilites to see this and how it could even be incorporated into the storyline that it makes me dizzy. I'd say most likely is that in the end the angels are back up in heaven and the souls didn't even notice, since time is a funny thing up there anyway. ;)
6th-Dec-2013 01:50 pm (UTC)
I figure we're not really meant to think too much about it. I long since learned that they make up canon to suit the current story line. And I'm not sure we ever really got a good sense of what heaven was even when we did see it last time. I suppose it could be anything they want it to be. :)
xx
5th-Dec-2013 04:21 pm (UTC) - Souls
The writers of the show are completely ignorant to any of that as they write the angels as petulant little power hungry brats. How can Heaven be Heaven when 99% of the angels are dicks? That is one of my issues with the whole angel storyline and the absence of God in Heaven. It is frustrating because it does not make sense and there are too many holes such as what is happening with the souls in Heaven. Lucifer and his dissidents were cast out of Heaven so how come there are so many anti-angels left? Surely God, who knows the hearts of all men, knows his angels even better... I think in subjects of angels and sensibility, we have to just look the other way. I just feel like the writers got tired of the demons being the bad guys and added angels into the mix. other than Cas - who is often times rather bumbling - angels have never been a help and all these cast out ones, who truly should have been trying to follow what God wants, should be protecting people and saving lives.
7th-Dec-2013 02:37 am (UTC) - Re: Souls
Lucifer and his dissidents were cast out of Heaven so how come there are so many anti-angels left?

Good point. Though maybe all angels are just a step away from becoming like Lucifer. They all see power hungry so maybe that's part of their inherent nature (an it's maybe the journey that they need to take - to learn humility and compassion once again. Cas seems to be the only understanding that…)

Humans seem very lowly to angels. Saving their lives is the least of their worries. Securing vessels (even though it could possibly kill them) seems to be the most important thing to them. I wonder why their light is white - there's certainly nothing pure about them.
5th-Dec-2013 10:05 pm (UTC)
Stop thinking right now!

There was a time I think when angels got their power from the Heavenly Host - I think they use all the souls in their own little heavenly dream compartments as batteries, (what can I say, I'm a cynic where angel's and heaven's concerned), but however it works, if all the angels are now on earth with no access to heaven where is all their power coming from?

No, don't think about it, even if you come up with a viable working theory Carver will rip the guts out of it next month.

Edited at 2013-12-05 10:06 pm (UTC)
7th-Dec-2013 02:39 am (UTC)
Stop thinking right now!

Bwahahaha! I can't! This DAMN SHOW!

if all the angels are now on earth with no access to heaven where is all their power coming from?

Hmmm..I hadn't even considered that one. So YES! Gotta stop thinking…!

(And I seriously doubt we could come up with a viable working theory…if the writers don't have one (which I'd say they don't) then I'd say one doesn't exist).
(Deleted comment)
7th-Dec-2013 02:42 am (UTC)
Yes. I think that's the closest we can get to making sense of what's going on up there. I don't might the idea of souls living in their best memories and angels having nothing to do with that. Souls mean something to angels though (I thought they .needed them for some reason - I thought the earlier battles were about collecting souls…hmmmm (could just be about them being in heaven and not directly connected to the angels).
5th-Dec-2013 11:34 pm (UTC)
I am SOOOOO frustrated by the angel plotline because it makes NO SENSE. No sense whatsoever. I really don't mind Castiel's human stint, but I don't get the roaming angel gangs and what anyone's motivation is in any of this. And you're right. The angel-free Heaven doesn't exactly mean that Heaven is empty. Right?

7th-Dec-2013 11:57 pm (UTC)
Yep. No sense. And then when it looks like it could make sense it then…doesn't.

but I don't get the roaming angel gangs and what anyone's motivation is in any of this

I know right? I've never got the feeling that the stakes are high enough for all the angels to be fighting against each other. I mean…what for? Power? If they achieve that power then what? They get to rule Heaven and….sit around all day, um ruling heaven. Now if one side what "good" or was trying to prevent Heaven from falling into the hands of lunatic angels then it might make a bit more sense (though I know that's where Cas and his small band of freedom fighting angels will come in…). Mostly it's just tiresome because we haven't been made to care about them. Probably because they are just the backdrop to the SamnDean dramas.

This is when I do miss those simple monster hunting episodes.
5th-Dec-2013 11:55 pm (UTC)
I tend to think of it as separate "Heavens" so to speak, as angels have no reason to be wandering around with human souls and we've had references to barracks / units / etc. Given that S6 was all about who got to use souls as power conduits, I expect that angels don't bother with human heaven unless they want to tap in to the power feed.

But it's always been extremely vague even when Kripke started the stupid angel plotlines. So just go with the MST3K mantra and you'll be fine.

eta: I would also add that from what little I know of biblical lore, angels and humans aren't necessarily chilling out with each other anyway. Moses met Samael (who was later merged with Lucifer in texts / etc.) and pretty much said "HOLY SHIT WHAT IS THAT ELDRITCH ABOMINATION!!" and the angel he was with had to be like "Na it's cool man relax." So the idea of angels interacting with humans in the clouds is a pretty recent Renaissance deal.

eta: come to think of it i- it is heavily implied in S6 that angels use human souls for power, but in S5 it's implied that human souls just kind of... exist there. So I suspect that souls besides their power have zero administrative relations with angels outside of when angels want to intervene. So human Heaven is probably not affected that much.

Edited at 2013-12-05 11:57 pm (UTC)
8th-Dec-2013 12:03 am (UTC)
So just go with the MST3K mantra

oooh, what's that?

So the idea of angels interacting with humans in the clouds is a pretty recent Renaissance deal.

Oh yeah, that makes sense. And the angels have always mentioned their distain of the human race so it makes sense that they really have little to do with each other in heaven (or on earth even - unless called to rescue one or two from Hell).

I can (and will!) accept that they are not connected. Angels using their power for (um…something) works, especially if they actually have no real connection

Thanks.
8th-Dec-2013 12:16 am (UTC)
The MST3K mantra is the best thing ever!!
"And if you're wonderin how he eats and breathes
And other science facts
Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show
I should really just relax'

for Mystery Science Theater Three Thooousaannd!"

twaaang


But yeah. TBH SPN's canon and laws are very fluid and have been retconned multiple times so I stopped trying to make sense of it. It's pretty much "whatever the plot needs" for better or worse.
8th-Dec-2013 12:30 am (UTC)
hahaha yes! Oh man - I say "just a tv show" in my head a million times but (with this show in particular) it doesn't always work. BUT…I'm gonna make it work because it's all TOO HARD! :D
7th-Dec-2013 02:53 am (UTC)
Glad I wasn't the only one to be wondering about this. I guess we'll see if there's any answers after hiatus. I'm not holding out for a clear explanation though.
8th-Dec-2013 12:05 am (UTC)
Hi. Yeah we might see - OR they might not even think it's worth going into detail about. I think (after reading some above comments) that heaven and angels are separate in "heaven" so the human souls up there probably won't even be explored on the show. But we'll see! Stranger things have happened! :D
8th-Dec-2013 01:08 am (UTC)
But we'll see! Stranger things have happened! :D
lol, yes true. Mostly I just shrug my shoulders when it this kind of thing happens. As long as the show is still enjoyable overall :)

Edited at 2013-12-08 01:09 am (UTC)
7th-Dec-2013 05:16 am (UTC)
Metatron as the only angel in heaven must mean that things pretty much run themselves... all the individual heavens don't require the angels to do anything. But it does make me wonder what angels usually do up there, and what their purpose is (besides being dicks).
8th-Dec-2013 12:07 am (UTC)
Yeah. I'm convinced now that angels and souls are separate and the souls don't need angels to actually do anything.

But yeah - what do they do up there? Naomi sat in an office a lot. That must get pretty boring. As I said, no wonder they are in-fighting - they must be bored!
9th-Dec-2013 09:06 pm (UTC)
Naomi sitting in her office, in a business suit... it's like angels are no different than humans, except that they have powers. There's nothing "angelic" about Malachi or Bartholomew. If most of the angels are dicks, then how are they any different than the demons? I don't get it. I'm also curious... do they ever really answer anybody's prayers? Because when do they ever show that they care about humans?
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