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curled around these images
just enough to make us dangerous
a few things... 
15th-Jun-2014 10:00 pm
Sam with Heron
  • I'm blown away how quickly money was raised recently to keep the fabulous SuperWiki running. A new, dedicated server was required due to all the information on it and all the visitors it gets. The goal was $2223 and that was raised in 12 hours! It's now on $3,625! The additional funds will go to the future running costs. There's still 33 days to go and I'm sure if you wanted to donate the money will be appreciated.

  • I've seen this posted on a number of journals. It's a lovely idea (SPN day of fandom love). Sad that we actually need to do something like this, but maybe drawing attention to how hurtful fandom wank can be, fans may think twice before being hurtful. Personally, I don't think "wank" is necessarily disagreeing with each other or having different views on the show. It's mostly about the way things are said.

  • Any of you into the Pacific Rim fandom? My darling friend and my long time vid beta _sharvie_ has made a Pacific Rim/Tron crossover AU vid! Incalculable, Unconditional. I was thrilled to be able to beta for her after all the years she beta'd for me.


I watched Scarecrow last night with zebra363. It's been a while since I watched a season 1 episode (though I did re-watch Devil's Trap a couple of weeks ago).

Something struck me:



Dean tells Sam "I'm proud of you" as a way of saying goodbye.

It's interesting looking back, that as early as 1.11 Dean was ready (and seemed able) to let Sam go. He was prepared to go on without Sam. He told him he was proud of Sam's strength and ability to go after what he wanted. He also used the same kind words of words to say goodbye that he did in 9.23. It's interesting that Dean seems to be in a place where he's not been able to be for a long, long time. I get that so much has happened to him (and between him and Sam) which has changed him over the series, but I wonder is his journey is about getting him back to the character he was in 1.11. That's not to say I want to see them separate, but maybe being able to separate might be a step forward (hee, or rather step back maybe).
Comments 
15th-Jun-2014 02:30 pm (UTC)
I wonder if that was a deliberate echo...I'd like to think it was.
15th-Jun-2014 10:59 pm (UTC)
Me too! Not sure it would be, but I love that something he said in season one is still part of him in season nine.
15th-Jun-2014 02:42 pm (UTC)
That scarecrow is still one of the scariest monsters they've had. I have to think that the parallel was deliberate. So much of the plot and the the action from 9.23 seems to specifically parallel another season. Lots of the ends of S2 and S4 rehashed.

15th-Jun-2014 11:02 pm (UTC)
It's scary!! I had forgotten how damn scary it is!

I like that it's something that Dean would</> say (can you tell I'm still slightly troubled over that line...). Letting go with "I'm proud of you and what we've done" seems to be important to Dean.
15th-Jun-2014 03:25 pm (UTC)
That's not to say I want to see them separate, but maybe being able to separate might be a step forward

That is it exactly. And in Swan Song Dean accepted that he had to let Sam go. I could see how the repercussions of getting Sam back soulless and having to resoul him could set Dean back on being able to imagine surviving without Sam...and then Sam not looking for him would have twisted him backwards even more.

Yeah, what I really want to see is a little bit of healthy separation in the middle of their epic codependency :)

Off-topic--did you get my note about the Indiegogo error?
15th-Jun-2014 11:11 pm (UTC)
and then Sam not looking for him would have twisted him backwards even more.

Yeah, I can see reasons why Dean has become someone who absolutely can't live without Sam. Or, at least needs to do everything he can to save him. I was also thinking that saying goodbye, when he knows Sam is a live, is probably different to be able to say goodbye to a dying Sam. Very different to Dean.

Yeah, what I really want to see is a little bit of healthy separation in the middle of their epic codependency :)

It's so weird. 'cause so do I. I want to see that it's possible (or actually, not at all possible, but at least acknowledged).

And no, I didn't get your note? I just checked my PMs.
16th-Jun-2014 02:14 am (UTC)
IDK why I thought this post was by missyjack, she is the one I pm'd about the fundraising. Sorry.

Thought on why 'I'm proud of yo'u is important to Dean--because he never heard it from John?
16th-Jun-2014 10:11 am (UTC)
Ah - except he has:

"I just want you to know that I am so proud of you". From In My Time of Dying

Which I kind of love because it was John's way of saying goodbye also. (*bounces* because of connections).


I suspect that "proud of you" is code for "I love you" and also extremely important as the highest compliment he can get and give.
15th-Jun-2014 08:57 pm (UTC)
the SPN day of fandom love seems to just be a tumblr thing i think. that's the only place i see the Dean/Cas, Wincest rules arguments and debates and how Destiel should be made canon. sigh. the Sam hate because he was a dick to Dean all season (what?)

i'm also in many groups on facebook and i see alot of enthusiasm for the show, new people always joining who apparently have only seen season 9. always asking questions about who is Castiel, who is Meg, when did they first appear, etc. i think that is where the ratings are coming from is the new people finding the show and enjoying the Carver Administration (cough). makes me feel weird about being so critical of the last two seasons.
15th-Jun-2014 11:06 pm (UTC)
Oh yes!! It would most definitely apply to tumblr (and probably even twitter). I don't see it (much) on LJ at all! Thank goodness. I tip toe (most of the time) when I'm on tumblr. Wow - that place is crazy sometimes.

new people always joining who apparently have only seen season 9.

They...what? Only seen season 9?! Wow, they'd have a different perspective on things. Which is possibly a good thing. And maybe not knowing their history would make watching S8 and S9 easier. It's really only the fact that they've been through all this before and have never really been so nasty to each other that us "oldies" care so much. I can only think...
16th-Jun-2014 01:55 am (UTC)
I like to think that kind of mirroring is deliberate, mostly because it makes me happy :)
16th-Jun-2014 10:11 am (UTC)
I would like to think so to. Interesting that John also used "I'm proud of you" to say goodbye. A winchester thing maybe?
16th-Jun-2014 08:42 pm (UTC)
Personally I think this has more to do with how Kripke originally conceived of the characters. Don't forget that his planned ending for the series in S5 was to have Dean let Sam go to hell to keep Lucifer trapped. I think Dean was always supposed to have mixed feelings about having the family together versus having people do what they needed to. (After all, John never gave him any choice about that -- it was always about what John thought needed to be done). So I think that it's more a matter of the writers not coming up with better ways of dealing with the characters that has him making choices like at the end of last season or the start of this one.
16th-Jun-2014 10:58 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I know the characters have changed since Kripke's day. I would like to think there are character reasons etc etc but it all has to do with the story telling. Sam had loooong reconciled having a "normal" life, but the beginning of S8 was all about him wanting a normal life. Dean has been able to let Sam go when he needed to, but this season has been about him not being able to let Sam go. Carver seems to be re-using these past character themes

I remember at the time saying that I sincerely hope that the way S5 ended was not how Kripke imagined the series would. That was be so very depressing. I think I read somewhere that the plan was for both of them to jump into the pit. I could live with that much more than thinking one had to live without the other (knowing that the other one was suffering in hell). One dying and at peace would also be way more acceptable.
18th-Jun-2014 03:25 am (UTC)
It's different from what he said in 1.11, because he's proud of "us". He's including himself in this, so it's not like he was letting go of Sam. Dean's journey isn't about him "getting back to the character he was in 1.11."

That's not to say I want to see them separate, but maybe being able to separate might be a step forward

I'm curious why you think that this is a step forward.

Oh, and I also like the SPN Day of Fandom Love... and I agree, it's the way that things are said.

Edited at 2014-06-18 03:32 am (UTC)
18th-Jun-2014 10:04 am (UTC)
I'm curious why you think that this is a step forward.

Because, unlike a lot of fandom, I don't consider their co-dependence very healthy. It's lead to some pretty awful behaviours by them both (to each other), so learning to let go seems to be a step forward as far as I am concerned. We've argued heaps about this and I know we differ very much on this aspect of their relationship. That's not to say I want them to be any less co-dependent, but there was a time when Dean was able to let go of Sam. He's lost that ability over the years and it's helped continue the Winchester cycle of sacrifice. Which is awesome for the show (and yay can't live without each other!) but I want to see Dean treating Sam like an equal again - being proud of him for what he's done and endured. Which I think the "I'm proud of us" was leaning toward. But I would loved it to have been "I'm proud of you for sticking with me when you could have easily walked away" (of course, Sam would never do that - but that was never addressed either). I have struggled massively with that statement, because in my books Dean doesn't have a lot to be proud of at the moment. Sure, he should be proud that somehow they've made it this far together, but until he acknowledges that he did the wrong thing in allowing Sam to be possessed without his consent that will all hang over me and this season. It still hurts truth be told. I am very disappointed that Dean died without some real reconciliation between the two of them. I am hoping that will come in S10. In fact, I actually think S10 will be able building real strength in their relationship. I hope!

Eek, sorry for the rant. I didn't mean too. I really don't think I have the energy to argue/discuss all this over again. ;/ I know we'll never see eye to eye on this.
28th-Jun-2014 04:13 pm (UTC)
I really don't think I have the energy to argue/discuss all this over again. ;/ I know we'll never see eye to eye on this.

Sorry that I'm late replying to this, hon. It sounded like you didn't want to talk to me about this, so I thought it was best to let it go. But now I've seen your latest post, and you're saying that you do want to discuss this topic. I'm not sure if this means that you'd like to discuss this with me again, or not. I was going to reply to your other post, and to your comment here, but I don't know if you want me to.

Edited at 2014-06-28 04:14 pm (UTC)
28th-Jun-2014 11:42 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry to give mixed messages. I suppose I mean I feel that we have had some very long and excellent discussions on the topic and I feel going over it again won't change anything. As you can see from my latest post I am still struggling with it all and to be honest I don't know what I'm looking for as an answer. I accept your version of the situation, but unfortunately that doesn't make me feel any better about Dean. I wish it did, because I think embracing that would help me I'm sure. But I can't. In all honesty I think I just have to move on (which I have been trying to do and failing miserably at!).
xx
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