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just enough to make us dangerous
A tinsy bit of thinky on 10.01 
11th-Oct-2014 10:39 am
Winchester is Cioming
Come on! You knew I'd have to do some (over) thinking.

A couple of things that I've been reading about and wanted to nut out here. I always love reading other people's interpretations on things because, I don't know, it just interests me I suppose.



Dean:

I've seen quite a variety of interpretations on demon!Dean (I refuse to call him deanmon because I just don't like that mash up). I got the distinct impression that this version of Dean lacked any "real" feelings. I didn't think we saw happiness, sadness or even anger. I didn't feel as though he was having a "good time" because it made him happy. More that it just made him feel good - sating a base need. In the past Dean drank because he was depressed or suffering PTSD, this time I got the feeling that he wasn't trying to suppress any feelings, rather just 'cause he could. It's his version of "howling at the moon". I didn't see an inkling of thought in regard to Sam - only that he just doesn't want to have to deal with him. Same with Anne Marie - no regard to her plight at all. I remember watching and looking for a hint that there's some residual care or remorse from this Dean. But I saw nothing. It was an aspect of Jensen's performance that I really loved (that said, I'm totally open to the idea that Dean does have feelings. The fact that he's avoiding Sam may suggest he knows he'll hurt him if he does and deep down he doesn't want to do that. Or that hurting Anne Marie was a way of deflecting and avoiding feelings he may have for her).


Sam:

I read an interesting idea that suggested that by Sam ignoring Dean's "Let me go" he's doing much the same as Dean did to him in S9 (and I suppose what Dean did when soulless!Sam begged him not to return his soul). Sam was ready to die in the beginning of S9 but Dean was determined to save him, Dean is ready to (essentially) die and live this new life and Sam is determined to save him. Personally, I'm not convinced because I think the situations are different, but it's an interesting idea. I think it's much more aligned to Dean ignoring soulless!Sam's pleas to remain soulless. Sam won't listen to Dean's pleas either because he knows this is not how Dean would want to live. I'll be curious if they are making a parallel because it will mean that the situation last season will be revisited.


I didn't come across any really good suggestions as to why Cas isn't in the bunker. Just not convenient for the storytelling I suppose.

(spoilery) Carver interview:

I came across this interview from Carver after 10.01 aired. I always hope he'll give some great insight, instead he just makes it all the more confusing. Aannway, he talks about Sam's shoulder (a bit of a let down) and how the Mark is effecting D!Dean (I can't make out his answer at all. Dean's a demon but the Mark will effect him more if he doesn't feed it. Which mean, he needs to feed the Mark in order for the Mark not to effect him…um…I…what?).

It's also spoilery for a new character (be warned!). And whenever Carver says "It's personal and it's going to pack more of a punch…" I get scared! Maybe we don't want to be constantly punched in the feels. How about tapped lightly on the shoulder - with all the gooey brother feels instead?

Anyway, make of that what you will. I'm not entirely sure he has a clue so I'm taking it with a grain of salt.
Comments 
11th-Oct-2014 02:59 am (UTC)
I agree, it's like soulless!Sam wanting to remain soulless. The "real" Dean wouldn't want to be a demon.

When Dean was human, if he didn't feed the Mark, then he'd get sick, and eventually die. But now that he's a demon, if he doesn't feed the Mark, it'll effect him more. Like, it'll take him over more (whatever that means).
11th-Oct-2014 03:06 am (UTC)
Yep - Sam liked being soulless because it freed him from feelings - and likewise with d!Dean. Remove that baggage and life maybe easier (but neither of them would want that for themselves).

When Dean was human, if he didn't feed the Mark, then he'd get sick, and eventually die.

Oh, I didn't realise he'd die if he didn't feed it. It seems like a paradox in the in order to feed the mark you had to let the mark take you over. As in, do lots of killing but by doing that you're giving into it - and letting it take you over even more. I suppose Cain did some horrid things when he had the Mark so maybe that's how far it could go...
11th-Oct-2014 05:32 am (UTC)
I'm posting this with the caveat that it's been a very long day so I hope this makes sense.

I managed to watch the whole episode and there are a couple of things that struck me.  I think Dean is still very much a part of whatever this new hybrid is but the longer he does what the blade urges him to do, the less the bit that is still human will reign over decision making and action.  I think there is still a lot of typical Dean emotion going on but it's harder for him to hear it.  Undemon!Dean would have liked Anne Marie and he would have stood up for her against some nasty dude but there would have been a bit more white knight in there rather than using it entirely as a play to keep her attention.  Even before the MoC, Dean didn't like to be called on his behavior and deflected it, usually through cutting insults. I'm thinking of how nasty he was when Sam, Cas and Bobby stopped him from saying yes to Michael.  I think she's lucky that he liked her as much as he did or she could have gotten physically hurt or killed in addition to having her feelings flayed.  

Dean is like a mean drunk right now in that he's on a very short, unpredictable fuse with little regard to the wellbeing of anyone else.  He's got the impulse control and reasoning of a child which doesn't help.  I think he was surprised that Anne Marie wouldn't go with him in a weirdly naive way.   It was a real sour grapes reaction.  Also, during the foosball game when he was telling Crowley to be quiet because it was distracting, there was an edge there of spoiling for a fight and if he hadn't been distracted by bigger fish to filet, Crowley might have found himself gutted.  He's been able to channel his anger into killing the other demons but killing them was something he allowed himself to do when he was still all Dean.  When he starts to kill humans beyond some sort of defense, we'll know he's close to no return.

I haven't been spoiled so this is pure speculation but I think the crucial thing here is how the Mark came to be and that was through one brother killing another.  That's what made Cain into what he was.  That means that having Sam anywhere near Dean has huge risks for both of them.  I think the Mark is driving Dean towards fraticide and if he succeeds in killing Sam, that will turn him entirely.  Crowley didn't just let Sam get close because it forces Dean to move on, it brings Sam within range for the Mark.  Right now, Dean is probably still human enough that he doesn't have to answer to any Hell hierarchy.  Crowley isn't his king yet.  If Dean flips entirely, he's probably subject to some sort of demon law, even if Cain largely ignored it.  I think that had a lot to do with the 'let me go' note.  Dean knows what the Mark wants and he was at odds with Sam to begin with for a lot of last season so there's plenty there to feed the Mark's urge.

Hope that makes some sort of sense....
11th-Oct-2014 09:18 am (UTC)
AH good point about the Mark fully activating on the murder of the brother and that being a possible reason for Crowley to deliberately give away their location to Sam... mmm. More food for thought there!
11th-Oct-2014 06:06 am (UTC)
First off, you'll get no Deanmon from me either. Period.

My thoughts on Dean's demonhood (so far) is that he's apathetic, but he wants what he wants, when he wants it. No impulse control. Jensen has also said that this new incarnation of Dean is "carefree”, and that may account for Dean’s seemingly blasé attitude towards, well, pretty much everything. Now, I’m almost positive that this is all going change when the Mark isn’t fed (with murder, one supposes), and/or when Dean is finally faced with something that piques him, like, oh, Sam. It’s going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. And I couldn’t be happier. >:-)

Re. Sam and this notion that Sam is deciding for Dean what’s best and removing his autonomy...yeah, not so much. I mean, there are a few cursory similarities but we all know damned well that Dean, in his right mind, doesn’t want to be traipsing around the countryside doing despicable things. Even if he currently says he does. Demon!Dean is broken and dangerous. Soulless Sam was broken and dangerous. Sam on his deathbed, however, was following the natural order of things by dying when mortally wounded, in his right mind, and was a danger to no one. Situations are gravely different.

I’ve got no clue what to do with Cas and the angels. I get why they want them to have a storyline that doesn’t always necessitate the appearance of the Winchesters, but this ain’t it. So. Damned. Dull.

Man, Carver wastes so many opportunities, and is vague as all get-out in his interviews. I would’ve used the hell outta Jared’s broken shoulder and totally made that a plot-point somehow. Hung a flag on it. But instead, we get a vague mention and the possibility that Carver may use it later if he feels like it. I hope he does. Just because someone else puts a gun on the stage in the first act doesn’t mean that you can’t be the one to use it in the third. Or something like that. It’s just so clumsy not to take advantage of the situation. Clumsy and lazy, IMHO.

All that being said, I didn’t hate the first episode! I’m really looking forward to the effect of consequences this season. I like it when some of the dicey things the characters do come back to haunt them, just as some of the GOOD they do should boomerang back as well. Karma, baby. But we shall see!

PS...someone please do something with Sam’s hair. Please. Pretty please.
11th-Oct-2014 11:45 am (UTC)
First off, you'll get no Deanmon from me either

That came form the CW didn't it? I think I prefer organic names for things rather than a corporation's attempt to make us follow one (something that bugged me with when watching Teen Wolf. Announcing the # during the ep. ARGH).

and/or when Dean is finally faced with something that piques him, like, oh, Sam. It’s going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better. And I couldn’t be happier. >:-)

Oh yes yes…the potential for all the angst! I think am so much happier with bro angst when one isn't himself rather than when they are just mis-communicating. I'm really keen to see if they play out the whole Cain and Able story line. All the bro angst!


Sam on his deathbed, however, was following the natural order of things by dying when mortally wounded, in his right mind, and was a danger to no one. Situations are gravely different.

I agree. I think the situation is very different. I actually want to say this quietly (because I seriously don't want to create wank here) but the review I read this in came from a heavily invested Dean girl and the feeling I got was an attempt at making what Dean did OK because now we are seeing that from Sam. If that makes sense? If Sam is now ignoring Dean's wishes (like he did in S9) all is even. I don't buy it, but I do like the idea of mirroring. I definitely see the soulless!Sam demon!Dean (I wonder if the alliteration here is a happy accident) parallel - but the S9 one. It will be curious though if the Show decides to pull these examples together. Ranting may ensue if they do…

I would’ve used the hell outta Jared’s broken shoulder and totally made that a plot-point somehow.

I know! How many opportunities do they have for real injuries? People who didn't know about the injury must have thought of it as a REAL plot point. So rarely do we see the boys carry injuries. To see it like this must have signalled a major moment. Instead, it's brushed over. I accepted it because I knew why Jared had been injured, but many watchers would not have had a clue.

PS...someone please do something with Sam’s hair. Please. Pretty please.

I have an urge to see a manip of Sam with pretty bows and clips in it. It's just SO wrong for this Sam. I want to see mess and length and "I haven't had time to cut my hair" hair. Not a friggin' bob! (hair matters!)
11th-Oct-2014 09:14 am (UTC)
I've been thinking a bit too (always dangerous), mostly about Crowley's role in all this. On the first run through, I'd thought Crowley's speech to Sam about Dean completing him, etc, had sounded relatively sincere but watching again yesterday, I feel Crowley was just trying to wind Sam up. We know he knew Sam would trace the call, so Crowley wanted Sam to find them - but we don't know why.
I'm thinking (and ok, hoping) that Crowley has some really long term game going on here - and that Carver has something in mind that will track back to Season 7. I am sure Crowley is manipulating both the boys and I don't see his ultimate purpose being just to obtain himself a buddy (or even an enforcer in the shape of Demon!Dean). He is already the King of Hell, and with Abaddon dead, why would he need Dean beside him to rule Hell?
Crowley's end game surely must be something bigger.

So when Crowley tells Dean he has to feed the Mark to either not die, or stop himself becoming a demon - I'm taking this with a massive bucket-load of salt. I mean, Dean already IS a demon - we've seen the black eyes twice now, so that's nonsense. There is more to it than that.
11th-Oct-2014 06:28 pm (UTC)
Manipulative Crowley being manipulative is my favorite flavor of Crowley! I hope you're right, and he's working both of the boys. It'll make it that much sweeter when the Winchesters re-bond and team up to thwart said scheme. (HEAR THAT, CARVER?? From my fingers to your eyes. Or something.)
11th-Oct-2014 09:40 am (UTC)
Deamon - thank you, yeah.

Feelings - interesting interpretation. I got the impression we were supposed to get the impression he was drinking cause of the stuff Crowley said. But I agree I didn't get much feeling from him, mostly hair.
*mentally gifs this with Dean wishing he couldn't feel a thing after his last Demoning escapade*
But then, his note to Sammy ... it can be interpreted as emotionless, but it's so emotionally impact-full that perhaps it's hard - I mean, it's written on a meta level to portray emotion, perhaps - IDK.
As for Anne Marie - him telling her not to get attached, and also explaining why - was still something that's a twisted way of taking her emotions into account. If he wasn't gonna be there to experience her pining, there's no practical reason to do that - and even if it's a practical thing, it still shows Dean's *focus*, his awareness of other people's feelings.

Sam ignoring Dean's "Let me go" he's doing much the same as Dean did to him in S9

I thought that too - it gave me hope for a payoff better than "I lied", for the whole... season 9 noncon possession thing, especially since this is a mirror of the whole consent to possession/no consent to possession, including the person giving/not giving consent not exactly being there to give it... but then - it's really not the same thing, consent doesn't work that way... But there's also the usual angel/demon dichotomy here that's been going on with the brothers forever - Dean belongs to the angels' side, supposedly, and an angel possessed Sam, and the other way around with Sam. This could be a "trying to make you more like me" thing, like family does sometimes etc., but perhaps this is stretching.

I didn't come across any really good suggestions as to why Cas isn't in the bunker. Just not convenient for the storytelling I suppose.


Seconded.
YUp yup yup.
And the whole "oh, there are angels being disobedient, in a morally ambiguous situation? Fine, fine, I guess I'll go - BECAUSE THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY LIFE!" was so... ugh. I so don't care about this plot. Can Cas maybe get plots that are not about him being an angel? Also - you don't wanna kill an angel to save your own life - I get it. But look, there's a dead angel. Maybe it's worth considering to take what you must.

Thanks for the spoiler warning! *avoids*

Edited at 2014-10-11 09:41 am (UTC)
12th-Oct-2014 04:16 am (UTC)
I got the impression we were supposed to get the impression he was drinking cause of the stuff Crowley said

Ah, which would suggest he is actually trying to burying some deeper feelings. I'll have to watch that scene again. My initial response is that he was just drinking because he could - he's in a bar and that's what he's been doing since he got there - but it could be more closely tied to him reacting to Crowley's words.

And I agree that there has to be "something" of Dean there to leave those words. He probably knows that he could very likely kill Sam if he gets in his way.

But there's also the usual angel/demon dichotomy here that's been going on with the brothers forever - Dean belongs to the angels' side, supposedly, and an angel possessed Sam,

Yeah. In terms of the story telling I think they like to play the brothers on "sides". Sam has definitely been through his own "demon" stage (and then maybe an angel stage). Now Dean is going through his demon stage… I don't mind the mirrors (and I'm so far enjoying this version of Dean) - it will be very interesting to see if they compare their actions to each others' predicaments as the same thing…


It would be nice to see Cas in some other story than the one that's now been repeated a qazillion times. I'd love to see him stop killing vessels (especially if we are to believe he understands humans now). Either that, or go back to being totally kickass and threatening. Hmmmm, not sure what I really want to see from Cas….
11th-Oct-2014 11:27 am (UTC)
I didn't come across any really good suggestions as to why Cas isn't in the bunker.

What?! The suggested haircut issue with Sam (by someone in your ep review) didn't convince you?...*g*

Like you I see D!Dean very much as someone who doesn't actually feel anything. "Sating a base need" is a good description his "fun" activities IMO. He does seem to have left his old life behind and Sam seems to come now as a slightly niggling distractionfrom his "past life".

I like how the mark is not making Dean a "run off the mill" demon but that things are complicated. Crowly surely is playing his own evil games still, telling truth only where it plays into his game.
Maybe he even is playing Carver... :P



12th-Oct-2014 04:17 am (UTC)
What?! The suggested haircut issue with Sam (by someone in your ep review) didn't convince you?...*g*

Haha! well, that definitely WAS the best suggestions so far… :)

I like how the mark is not making Dean a "run off the mill" demon but that things are complicated.

Yeah, me too. Straight out and out "evil" wouldn't have been so interesting - especially to start with. Heading that way as each episodes progresses might be though…;)
11th-Oct-2014 01:42 pm (UTC)
I've kind of made it a policy not to read anymore interviews with Carver, because they just leave me head scratching that we're watching the same show, and then scared because he is the effin' helmsman of the whole kit and caboodle.

I do agree with you about Dean, though, and the way Jensen played him. It was all so deliciously 'off'; crystal clear that this is Dean, and yet NOT Dean. The cliche would have been for there to be a flicker of *something* when Sam is in trouble, but his eyes were scarily flat in the car at the end there ( really do not know how Jensen manages that particular nuance).

Edited at 2014-10-11 01:44 pm (UTC)
12th-Oct-2014 04:22 am (UTC)
I thought it was one of Jensen's finer performances - considering how long he's been playing Dean he would have really had to think about this characterisation. The dead, empty eyes at the end were the most telling. Sam in trouble and Dean not giving a flicker of interest in his welfare (whaaaa). I love his combination of lethal and carefree. The danger is lurking underneath - but all the while showing us that smile. Can't wait to see more!
11th-Oct-2014 02:35 pm (UTC)
it's much more aligned to Dean ignoring soulless!Sam's pleas to remain soulless. Sam won't listen to Dean's pleas either because he knows this is not how Dean would want to live.

I see your point . . . but we don't know to what extent Sam may go to save his brother from demon-dom. He's already proved that he's not playing the nice guy this time around, and previous interviews have mentioned the "who's the bigger monster" line, so . . . anything could happen. :) To save big bro, Sam could end up putting something into Dean that he doesn't want.

I'm not entirely sure he has a clue

NO one is entirely sure that he has a clue. ;)


11th-Oct-2014 10:57 pm (UTC)
Sam could end up putting something into Dean that he doesn't want. My mind went to the dirty place. :)
11th-Oct-2014 03:15 pm (UTC)
The one reason this is different from Dean tricking Sam into possession is that Sam's last request was that he be allowed to die; Dean's last request was that he didn't want to become what he was already starting to become. By saving Dean, Sam is HONORING Dean's last request as a human being. Dean was violating Sam's. It is closer to reensouling Soulless!Sam, but it's different as well. Soulless!Sam had no objecting to getting his soul back until he was told that doing so would kill him or that his brain would melt and he would become a drooling mess because of the Hell memories. He wasn't objecting to feeling again. He wasn't that concerned that it was going to be more difficult with a soul. He just didn't want to die or have a mental breakdown to get his soul back. This may be the issue with Dean down the line. Dean may die from his wounds if he is no longer a demon, but right now all we are seeing is that Sam will be upholding Dean's last wishes, that he doesn't want to die, but he would rather die than become something he would want to hunt.

I think people are trying to say this is equal to either of the other actions as a way to say what Dean did last season was hunky, dory fine. I don't think they are equivalent.
12th-Oct-2014 04:36 am (UTC)
I tend to agree. In fact, very much so. My feeling is the theme of "how far am I prepared to go to save my brother" will be explored. We KNOW how far Dean is prepared to go to keep Sam alive. We've seen it a few times now. We are pretty sure how far Sam would be prepared to go (though Carver's Sam is a bit different to the Sam we saw in Kripke's era), but I think we're going to see Sam cross some of his own personal lines to save Dean. Maybe. They won't be the same - but now they'll both have instances were they can (hopefully) reflect on those.
11th-Oct-2014 04:52 pm (UTC)
I think demon!Dean is actually the epitome of what a demon is; everything is lizard brain. I don't think he has any human emotions at all, he's completely ambivalent about Sam's plight but the thought of getting revenge on Cole is speaking to the darkness in him. Right now I doubt he would care one way or the other if Cole murdered Sam. I also don't think it will be Dean that rescues Sam from Cole's clutches like a lot of people seem to be speculating. Either Cole will let him go because he realises that Sam isn't the bargaining chip that he thought he was, or Sam gets out on his own. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if Dean charges in to the rescue.

I think the whole thing with the mark could be that Crowley is using that as an excuse. It may very well be that the more he feeds the mark the darker he'll become which plays right into where Crowley wants him - a completely vicious, insatiable attack dog that Crowley can use, or it could be that if he doesn't feed the mark then he will completely lose control and go nuclear. It's hard to tell.

The comparison of Sam doing to Dean what Dean did to him in season 9 is totally laughable and just seems to me like Dean fans' attempts to make Sam out to be a hypocrite. Sam was dying, he was ready to let go, and he was headed to peace in Heaven. Dean is not dying, he's a monster; something that he wouldn't ever want if he was not affected by the mark. Plus, leaving him be is basically unleashing a new supercharged demon onto humanity which human Dean would never want. You couldn't get two more vastly different scenarios. I also got the feeling from when Sam thought that Crowley had let a demon possess Dean's body that he wanted Dean's body back so he could give him peace. I think if Dean's body had just been possessed Sam would have exorcised it and burned his brother's body.

It is a little similar to Dean forcing Sam's soul back into him though. Sam didn't want it because he didn't want the human anguish that went with it, much the same as Dean doesn't. That comparison is pretty accurate except for the fact that Sam was also terrified of having hundreds of years of hell torture memories to deal with whereas Dean will only have to suffer memories of what he did while under the influence of the mark, so there is still a pretty big difference. Regardless, it's not violating his brother's autonomy because where Dean knew Sam would never agree to being possessed by an angel and Dean did it anyway, Sam knows that Dean would never, ever want to be a demon if it wasn't for the mark's effect.

As for Cas not being at the bunker, none of that made sense. According to Carver we were supposed to understand the reason, plus the reason that Sam's shoulder was injured by their conversation. All I got out of it was that Cas somehow messed up and allowed a demon to get the jump on Sam but it gave no clue as to why they weren't still together...unless I missed something.

I really want to find out about Rowena though. Bet it has something to do with Crowley. I'm sure I read somewhere months ago that they put out a call for an actress with a Scottish accent.


12th-Oct-2014 04:57 am (UTC)
I also don't think it will be Dean that rescues Sam from Cole's clutches like a lot of people seem to be speculating.

Oh people are speculating that? It's definitely not what I am seeing. I don't think Dean cares a jot about Sam at the moment (whaaaa). I think the "is he dead" was almost an acceptance that he could be. He seemed pretty ready to accept it if it was. I think wanting to kill Cole is definitely coming from the darkness inside him.

I think if Dean's body had just been possessed Sam would have exorcised it and burned his brother's body.

Yeah - I got the feeling Sam had accepted that Dean was dead and didn't like the idea of Crowley stuffing a demon into it. And I agree the situations are different. Sam was prepared to die (and if Dean had let him go Kevin may still be alive), if Sam lets Dean go as per request - there will be a killing machine on the loose and neither Sam or Dean would want that. I'm still puzzled about what Sam could possibly do that would make him just as monstrous as Dean (or more monstrous that demon blood drinking…).

All I got out of it was that Cas somehow messed up and allowed a demon to get the jump on Sam but it gave no clue as to why they weren't still together...unless I missed something.

Nope - nothing missed I don't think. I read somewhere that Cas didn't want to be a burden on Sam. Still doesn't reason why Sam wouldn't have insisted that Cas stay in the bunker though. There might have even been an answer somewhere in the books on how to help him.

Really looking forward to meeting Rowena. I'm also wondering if we'll see Crowley son back? It felt like he was introduced last season for a reason.
11th-Oct-2014 05:37 pm (UTC)
I read an interesting idea that suggested that by Sam ignoring Dean's "Let me go" he's doing much the same as Dean did to him in S9 (and I suppose what Dean did when soulless!Sam begged him not to return his soul)

That is a very interesting idea. I guess I can kinda see some parallels there with Sam's situation in S9, even if it's not the same exact situation. It does seem to fit more closely with Dean ignoring Soulless Sam's pleas to remain soulless. I wonder if Sam will try and get help from someone big to help get Dean back (like Dean did with Death when getting Sam's soul back and putting up the wall).
11th-Oct-2014 06:25 pm (UTC)
I'm going to totally disagree with the idea that this is the same as what Dean did in tricking Sam into possession. Sam's last instructions were basically a DNR (Do Not Resurrect). He was clear that if he died he didn't want to be brought back by supernatural means. He clearly did not want to be possessed by another angel. Dean went against the spirit of what he knew Sam wanted. Dean's final directive was that he didn't want to be what he was turning into. That death was preferable to what the Mark and Blade were making him. So by saving Dean, Sam is actually FOLLOWING that directive, not going against it.

It is closer to what happened with Soulless!Sam. The big difference is that Soulless!Sam was willing to get his soul back. He decided that he was missing something and that he thought it would be better if he got it back. He worked to get it back, by working for Crowley under the condition that Crowley would return his soul, something he and Dean believed Crowley could do. Soulless!Sam only changed his mind when Crowley, Cas and Balthazar ALL said that Sam would either die or be left a drooling, catatonic mess with a soul that was had been in the Cage. Soulless!Sam wasn't objecting because a soul was more trouble or life was more difficult with a soul. He was objecting because he had been told that his existence and his mind would be destroyed if he got a damaged soul back. As of now, we haven't even begun to examine what being saved or cured means for Dean. His soul isn't damaged in the way Sam's was. Crowley didn't seem to be horribly mentally unstable when he was almost cured. There is a chance Dean will die from the wounds he got in the battle with Metatron if he is no longer a demon, but that hasn't even been addressed. Dean, as himself, had no fear of death although Demon!Dean may not agree. That is a consideration to be weighed.

I haven't read the particular comments the poster mentioned. What I have seen is the people making the argument that this is just the same as 9.01 are more interested in saying Sam is a hypocrite and Dean did the totally right thing, than actually looking at the situations and evaluating if they are the same. I don't think they are, and I need more than a neener, neener see how wrong Sam is (which is the context I've seen the argument in) to see that point of view.

I know I'm expanding on my first post,sorry.

Edited at 2014-10-11 06:27 pm (UTC)
11th-Oct-2014 11:23 pm (UTC)
Have been thinking about this a lot. Demon!Dean. Jensen's take o D!D made me think of the seven deadly sins. Dean is definitely wallowing in sloth - with a dash of lust. :) These are characteristics Dean already had - he just didn't indulge in them to the detriment of everything else.

We know from canon that demons feel (everything from loyalty to passion to hunger). When I think about Dean's worst traits I would imagine it is his belief in his own worthlessness. There was clearly no joy in his actions - not like we've seen from other demons. I can't help but think that he is sinking into that idea of him being poison to everything he touches, including himself. I see a lot of the same self destructiveness that an addict displays from their own shame. Maybe D!D can't actually die from it, but it's clearly not bring him joy. This seemed much less howl at the moon and more wallowing in shame and loathing. I think there is a part of him that still wants to be the hero, but as it would be with a demon - has been twisted - his actions with the ex-boyfriend and his care with the thing with the thing are really about him getting accolades (not about other people). I don't really see it as non-feeling or lizard brain. I see it more as Dean (not humanity) but Dean magnified/exaggerated in the worst possible ways. Would Dean rape and kill innocents - I think even as a demon he'd have to evolve to be so far from the human he was. ( i guess because canon has shown Demons to be VERY emotional. I think Crowley with his cool, calm is the closest and yet he also seems to have needs that he can't fulfill. They after all remember being human. Show has also shown us that they cling to these human feelings.) I think the only place that goes awry is with Dean's utter lack of concern about Sam's situation, but I think that may be unreliable narrator (his passion to hurt Cole says he has feelings of some kind about it) or it could be that part of Dean that resents being Sam's keeper (also canon). That must have been a huge burden and if he can finally lay that down with only a twinge of guilt, I can see how that would appeal to his demon. I think in many ways D!D reflects how Dean really sees himself deep down - a womanizing skank, a failure, a drunk, a barfly, low class, and a failure at getting Sam out of the hunting life with a dash of the hero that he also believes himself to be.

I read in another review that perhaps the blade is driving Dean to kill his brother (with a little help from Crowley) - after all the blade was forged in this sin. I think that seems likely. :)

Sam - I just want to hug him. Pure speculation but maybe Sam and Cole team up to hunt Dean? For now they want the same thing and Sam has to be wondering if Dean can even be saved? I do think this parallels Souless!S much more then last season. I was not particularly upset about Dean's actions with the angel, but I did sympathize with Sam's anger at his autonomy being ignored. I do wonder what path Sam will have to travel to get Dean back to himself? (Head canon says Sam's human yet grace tainted blood are the key and that Sam drinks from Dean to keep up his strength. I am totally writing this version - LOL! If only this were HBO, we could have that version. :) I'm hoping they devote enough care to this to really make it play out with an impact.
12th-Oct-2014 11:47 am (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I can't say it's howI interpreted Dean when I watched the episode, but I can see how some of fits. I think the idea that he still wants to be a hero is certainly present. I don't think I can see the "wallowing in shame and loathing" though. I mean, yeah, that's certainly a major part of what makes Dean "Dean", but the thing that really struck me is how much he was lacking those very things. That burden seemed to be lifted. He was able to do all the things without carrying the weight of burden that he normally would. I agree that demons do seem to feel, but I wasn't getting the impression the this version of Dean was feeling a whole lot. Certainly, not the feelings that we know Dean would be feeling in any of the situations we saw him in. Now, it could be that Dean is somehow fighting any remorse or emotions he might be feeling at the moment - I can certainly accept that, but I'm really not sure there's a lot of thought past looking how to satisfy some basic needs. I do like the idea that it's because at Dean's very heart and soul is his self loathing we are seeing him acting out like this.

I am hoping we'll get to see more of this side of Dean over the next couple of episodes - I'm pretty sure we will!

Pure speculation but maybe Sam and Cole team up to hunt Dean?

Yeah, it seems feasible. Though Sam would know Cole will likely kill Dean when he finds him so I'm not sure how they'd play that out. Unless Sam can convince him that Dean isn't the monster Cole thinks he is/was. Damn, why isn't it the next episode already!?!
14th-Oct-2014 12:55 pm (UTC)
i dont read JC's interviews of anything.
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