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10.15 Poll and comment 
19th-Mar-2015 10:38 pm
Ain't heavy
Poll #2004397 10.15 reaction poll

I thought 10.15 was:

Awesomesauce! Loved all of it!
Pretty good. Enjoyed most of it.
Ok. It had some good bits
*meh* Didn't really work for me.
Nope. Nothing good about that one.

I really, really enjoyed that episode. I was on the edge of my seat for some parts and had my eyes behind my hands for other parts (yay! gory bits!). The cinematography was lovely and the pacing felt (mostly) good. The MoTW was possibly one of my favourites this season. It harked back to a past monster and introduced a new one (and I kinda love creepy worms inside of people!).

There was some solid Sam n Dean stuff and if we hadn't see it ALL before I would be on the edge of myself wondering what on earth will happen next. The fact that we are seeing an identical story line to S3 (Dean in mortal peril and Sam feeling helpless to save him) makes me feel a little weary of it all. But it's ok. I feel like I've turned a corner and my deep gloom for the Show seems to have lifted (hiatus is good for that!).

IF the show deviates from the predictable trajectory - Sam does something "bad" (you know, sleeps with a demon, drinks demon blood and kills and innocent nurse etc) to save Dean but fails (because there are others who will do that more successfully) and then spends next season making up for his failure - I will be bloody thrilled. It would be incredibly awesome if they take a surprising turn (one that I can't even imagine at this point) and do something that not only brings in Sam's past attempts at saving Dean, but also looks at Dean's choices when he's saved Sam I will be pretty darn happy. But, if it doesn't, I suppose I'll just have to enjoy lots of angsty Sam and Dean being influenced more and more by the mark. :) I'm afraid I won't enjoy seeing Sam fail again, but I am totally bracing myself for it. After all, it is part of Sam's blue print (*sniff*).

That all came about because at the end, when Sam felt such deep sorrow for not being able to save Kit (aka Dean), I had a mixed reaction of - "oh wow, we have a Sam moment!" and "seriously? How many meat suits have they killed without ever attempting to save them!? Why is he suddenly feeling bad about not being able to save someone now?!". I KNOW it's not about that and we're not supposed to think about meat suits as being human - but still, it was in the back of my mind. I also know it's about setting up Sam's worry-about-failing story line - so I know why we saw it (yes, I'm over analysing but that's just me...).

Aaaaanway. Solid ep. Dean sneaking the icing off the cake was glorious, as was the two of them working together so perfectly. I also love Dean getting on with the job and seeing the self reflection in the MoTW rather than through mirror gazing.

I often wonder if the show could survive (continue?) with simple MoTW eps, with an overall season arc (and baddie) and WITHOUT the brother angst. The two of them against the world, rather than against each other. Possibly not. Perhaps is the constant drama between them that makes it so compelling.
19th-Mar-2015 03:31 pm (UTC)
I see your point on season 3. My POV is that it's season 2 in reverse -- Dean has a bloody destiny he's been marked for and Sam is determined to save him from it instead of Sam being marked for a bloody destiny and Dean determined to save him from it.

So it's definitely a parallel to earlier seasons!

And wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if somehow Sam SUCCEEDED this time?
19th-Mar-2015 03:43 pm (UTC)
And wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if somehow Sam SUCCEEDED this time?

hehe! Miracle more like! (though, I've been thinking he may well succeed - but at what cost?). But not sure how that plays into the Cain and Abel story. hmmmmm - though we're guaranteed major angst no matter what happens… ;)
19th-Mar-2015 05:05 pm (UTC)
I'll have to watch the episode again, because my first go-round was a little 'meh', but that doesn't mean anything necessarily! I loved the gore/serious monster biz aspect. Unlike some, I don't dislike Cole, though he wasn't terribly well-written this spin ... well, actually, I think this writer just isn't smashing with dialog, but hey, so be it.

I believe Carver's current team doesn't have a great overview of the characters and past events (even though some of the writers have been around awhile), so the dialog will feel like it's been done before ... because it has.

Pretty derned solid MotW ep, though! Would've liked to have seen Dean down to one layer in the sweat lodge, heh. I was super happy when the boys caught Cole going back on his word: "And you bought him dinner!" Best line. There were a few spots where I thought bits had been written for humor but weren't played that way, which was weird.

I so very liked Sam's fretting at the end, but like you said, if they hadn't been coming off a period where the show really didn't give a floopy about meatsuits, I might've been more moved by Sam's angst. Obviously, his concern about not being able to save Dean is coloring everything for him right now, so there IS that.

Anywho, I'm gonna watch it again today sometime and ponder a tad more. Pull it apart. Not a bad episode, all told!

Edited at 2015-03-19 05:07 pm (UTC)
20th-Mar-2015 02:28 am (UTC)
I was engaged and wasn't left head scratching as much as I usually am - so I counted that as a win! (also, old fashioned MoTW and no angels and demons - double win :D). I was bored a bit during the Cole and Dean stuff - mostly because I don't care at all about Cole. I know it was being used to show us the fight Dean has ahead so it was important (though I'm not sure how much more they need to hammer home that Dean will need to fight this from within, but there you have it).

Cole is curious because we're seeing him basically only though Dean's eyes only (hee - surprise!). Cole apologised to Dean for trying to kill him and yet there's been no mention at all about what he did to Sam. Sam's flinch when he sees him made me think of the danger Cole had put him in, but I think it was more about him protecting Dean from Cole, than his remembering his torture. I just don't know what to make of that. Sam is being SO forgiving at the moment - I know that's part of him character, but I get confused about how someone who was such a dick (and threat to both of them), becomes like their best friend in the course of an episode. Kind of like Gadreel. Oh you're sorry you tried to kill us? Ok, that's fine, you're now on our Christmas card list. I did like that Cole fully understands why Dean killed his dad and acknowledged the thankless job they do.

What is very curious (and this has only just dawned on me - when writing up a comment below), that Dean knows the potential danger Sam is in but he hasn't shared that with Sam. And not only that, he seems to be telling Sam to stop trying to find something that will help him. So, once again, Dean is making decisions about something that will involve Sam, without him. I'm not sure if that's deliberate, but it's curious that they are continuing this characterisation for Dean. Sam is probably aware of his own danger, but it clearly doesn't worry him. Sam, trusts that Dean will never hurt him, so his concern is more for what's going to happen to Dean. And Dean trusts himself enough to believe he'd never hurt (or kill) Sam, so he doesn't need to trouble Sam with it (even though as a demon he tried just that, so you'd think Dean would be very worried about Sam's safety. Maybe that will come out later).

Hmmm, not sure where that's leading. Just mulling that over… (seems there might be more thinky in that episode than I originally thought).

19th-Mar-2015 05:33 pm (UTC)
The fact that we are seeing an identical story line to S3 (Dean in mortal peril and Sam feeling helpless to save him) makes me feel a little weary of it all.

That isn't what's happening though? Dean is not in mortal danger. Dean is in no danger. If Dean dies he will wake up two hours later, though this isn't much of an issue because he's significantly more powerful than a fully human hunter. Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.

I mean, I'm not saying you have to like it as much as I do and shouldn't be underwhelmed, obviously. I'm saying I'm enjoying it because it's a solid point about the characters' enmeshment that the show hasn't really emphasized before: that usually the "your problems are my problems, BRO" is set up to be an emotional commitment. But in this case, Dean's problems really are Sam's problems, even - especially! - if Dean refuses to acknowledge or deal with those problems.
20th-Mar-2015 01:57 am (UTC)
Dean is not in mortal danger. Dean is in no danger.

Ah, I have to say that hasn't been my reading. I see him heading down an extremely destructive path - possibly trying to kill Sam and then as many people has he wants. If he is to become Cain I would say his life is very much in danger - the Dean as we know him, of course. He may still live, but it's not a life Sam (or Dean) would want. Powerful yes, but no longer "Dean". Other alternative is Dean having to die (someway) in order to save him. There's no happy ending for Dean on his current trajectory.

Sam is the one who is placed in grave danger by Dean's grim, manly resignation to his fratricidal steroid implant.

Oh yes! But Sam doesn't know that. And how curious that Dean DOES know that and yet he's not coming across as too concerned (now) of getting rid of it. I am assuming Dean believes he is strong enough to fight it and therefore doesn't believe Sam is in danger (I do like this part of the characterisation - very much in keeping with the Dean we saw last season. Not letting Sam in on the danger Sam is in. Proof, sadly, that Dean is still doing much the same as he's been doing to Sam for a long time now. Hopefully meaning this may have some positive resolution in Dean becoming aware of this).

I agree it's not identical. But the "I didn't save this one" is reminiscent of how they used to think about the ones they couldn't save. During S2 and S3 we witnessed Sam struggling with his destiny - each loss cut him deep. It came to a head in S3 when we could see him lose the battle to save Dean. I see a parallel with the Sam then and the Sam we saw in last night episode. He's caring about the ones he can't save because he's feeling that way about Dean now.

But in this case, Dean's problems really are Sam's problems, even - especially! - if Dean refuses to acknowledge or deal with those problems.

Agreed! If that episode is anything to go by, the danger Sam is in because of Dean isn't being highlighted. Sam's danger is a problem FOR Dean - in terms of being in control of the Mark, not because Dean is worried about what he might actually do to Sam. And certainly Sam isn't thinking he's in any immediate danger from Dean (though he should be. And maybe he is aware - as he was looking at a picture of Cain killing Abel as the episode opened). That's consistent also, because Sam never sees Dean as a threat - even though he's done some pretty threatening things to Sam - both this season and the last.

(Hmmm, I think I might be seeing what you're seeing a bit better. Maybe?)

I am desperately trying to enjoyed again. I liked the episode and the niggles I had I've tried to brush aside. I don't feel confident for the future, but I am trying to think of it more along the lines that you do. As I said in your thread - I WANT to be confident and sometimes the act of doing that helps. :)
19th-Mar-2015 06:02 pm (UTC)
I can only speak for myself, but for me it's definitely the constant drama between the brothers that makes the show so compelling to watch!

I liked the ep (I'm always very positive about the show, there's hardly one I don't like at all), but thought it was one of the weaker ones this season. I guess I simply prefer the mytharc episodes.
20th-Mar-2015 04:27 am (UTC)
Hee - I think I might be opposite…:)) I'm a huge fan of the MoTW eps. I've loved the myth arc eps in the past but since S8 they've just been hard for me to enjoy. Just too much brother nastiness and I find that really hard to watch. Though, we've seen much for togetherness recently, so that's been nice.
19th-Mar-2015 06:42 pm (UTC)
my grade for this ep is B for boring it didnt work for me. i dont like Cole, the disrespect of them not bringing up Sam being tortured, kidnapped, and beaten by Cole is confusing to me and to have Sam even working with Cole after all of that he did to him :(. im waiting to see that quest to save Dean

Edited at 2015-03-19 06:56 pm (UTC)
20th-Mar-2015 04:43 am (UTC)
Yeah, the lack of closure on Cole torturing Sam is problematic. But, and I'm not trying to be contentious here, what Sam experiences during the story isn't the important part. It's only there to serve the plot - so, in the case of Sam's torture that was merely about showing us how different Dean was by not responding to it. It wasn't meant as any thing that would concern or worry Sam. It's past (pretty much like anything that has happened to Sam in the last 3-8 years) and so it's not worthy of mentioning again.

Cole exists now to show Dean the fight he's going to have on his hand when dealing with the mark. Kit dying was to show how Sam is feeling about potentially not being able to save Dean. It's easier (for me now) to pretty much accept that stuff that happens to Sam is only there for plot, so expecting human reactions from it is like wishing that Sam will succeed in saving Dean. I hope for it, but am trying to stop getting angsty about it. It's just not worth it any more.

(sorry for the mini-rant thing. I continue to be bitter about Sam's exclusion when it comes to, well, pretty much anything atm).

I did enjoy the ep because I loved the monster and it had some great scary sections. Also, the boys worked well together and we DID get to see Sam's sad face a couple of times…;)
19th-Mar-2015 08:25 pm (UTC)
I agree! This was a great episode IMO. I really like your thoughts about it seeming like S3 in a way. I can kinda see some parallels in there, too. And it would thrill me if they decided to go the way you mentioned...As long as it doesn't involve Sam being killed by Dean (or Sam killing himself somehow to save Dean - because I guess I'm way too protective of the character and don't want to see him die again, lol...even though he'd have to come back some way, it'd drive me insane throughout the hellatus), I'm all for it. ;)

Loved Dean sneaking the icing off the cake! I am enjoying the MOTW eps a lot more. It's nice to have a little break from the angels and Crowley storylines for once.
20th-Mar-2015 05:11 am (UTC)
Hmmm, I'm not sure how I want the season finale to go. I know how I DON'T what it to go (Sam doing something stupid to save Dean, and/or failing and then have to redeem for it next season *ugh*), but not sure what I'd actually like to see. I's love to be surprise and I love for both Sam and Dean to have some sort of character growth (realisation about themselves and each other etc), but yeah, no idea what they're thinking with this one. Very curious to find out. :)
19th-Mar-2015 09:30 pm (UTC)
I'm not saying anything, Ash
20th-Mar-2015 01:34 am (UTC)
I know you loved it hun and are just overwhelmed with positive vibes about the direction its going in… ;)
19th-Mar-2015 10:14 pm (UTC)
Yup, same here! :D And they brought Cole back and not wasted him as character! I'm amazed. I thought it's not possible anymore in this season. (For male characters anyway. Females do fine. Why can't we have both? *grumbles*) Also, it was a particularly great episode in visual terms, wasn't it? The sharply angled shot of Impala on the bridge, and later the Cole & Dean dialogue at the gunpoint...

Dean sneaking the icing off the cake was glorious
Yup. *g*
20th-Mar-2015 05:15 am (UTC)
Agreed. I think it was a good way to use Cole. I'm not particularly fond of him (torturing Sam will put anyone in my bad books…;D), but what they did with him worked well.

The look of the episode was fantastic. I adored the way it started. Overall, pretty solid. The niggles I have are my usual ones so it's become not worth mentioning any more. :)
19th-Mar-2015 10:17 pm (UTC)
I was thinking that Sam felt really bad about the death of Kit because he had spent some time with the wife and felt badly for her and yeah, as he is trying so hard to find a cure for Dean and can't even save a "simple" (hah) monster it would be disheartening.

As far as the squick factor goes it was a winner, i was yelling EEEWWWWW for quite a while there,and i never do that!!

The guy who plays Cole is a really good actor, hope we see him again.
20th-Mar-2015 07:46 am (UTC)
I totally agree! Don't get me wrong, I LOVE that we are seeing that level of care again. I've been really missing it. I know exactly why we're seeing it now and I am hoping this means we'll see more of that to come. :)

I was yelling EEEWWWWW for quite a while there,and i never do that!!

Me too! (I should be ashamed to say I was positively gleeful!).

The guy who plays Cole is a really good actor, hope we see him again.

I'm slowly warming to him. It's always hard for me to like a character after they've tortured Sam. And as the part of the story line as been brushed over I don't feel we've had a resolution to that. I know Sam has moved passed it, so I need to as well. I am enjoying his acting and I like that they are building up his character. I think he'd make a great hunter. It would be interesting to see him team up with another hunter and the boys come across him again sometime in the future (maybe even spin off potential?)...
19th-Mar-2015 10:40 pm (UTC)
I'm feeling a little bipolar about this episode. On the 1 hand the show is back and it makes me very happy but on the other hand I too was a little confused about the cole dynamic, damn it if I were sam I woulda been kicking his ass all over the place for pay back, but here is my one main gripe. Cole straight up called sam sammy 2 or 3 times that i remember and sam didnt correct him? WTF?????? I CALL BS here, srry, rant over ;)
20th-Mar-2015 07:51 am (UTC)
Haha! I know! It was SO grating. I hated "Dean-o" as well. I figure it was part of his character, but yeah. NO one calls Sam Sammy but Dean! (got it Cole?!).

I've said somewhere else on this thread that (unfortunately) Cole's torture of Sam was plot driven and was basically there to show how "changed" Dean was (not caring about it at all). As it pretty much had nothing to do with Sam, they don't feel they need to revisit it. Sadly, because this is happening more and more. Things happen to Sam to drive the plot, but then there's no exploration about the effect what happens to him has on him. So yeah, Sam ends up (almost) being the one to apologise to Cole, rather than the other way around. We just have to celebrate the fact that Sam is just so god damn forgiving, *hearts him*.

20th-Mar-2015 12:01 am (UTC)
Definitely one of the more suspenseful and gruesome episodes for a while!
20th-Mar-2015 07:51 am (UTC)
Agreed! I was wondering how you were going with all the gore!
20th-Mar-2015 03:51 am (UTC)
The show gave up on saving possessed humans ages ago, so I don't see it as having anything to do with Sam's reaction about not saving Kit.

I see the similarity to season 3 (Dean in peril, Sam trying to save him). Difference is, we don't have eps like Mystery Spot anymore.
20th-Mar-2015 07:55 am (UTC)
The show gave up on saving possessed humans ages ago, so I don't see it as having anything to do with Sam's reaction about not saving Kit.

Well, that's kind of my point. The boys have long since cared about the vessels so it seems weird to me to have them suddenly caring about the victims now. I mean - I GET it and I much prefer it like this, but I'm sad that they only show them "caring" when it suits the plot and not when possessed people are concerned. They used to see possessed people as victims like any other, but somewhere along the way that's been forgotten in favour of out and out slaughter of demons (when, in many cases, they could have been saved). What happened to exorcisms I wonder? (I know, they don't actually kill the demon, but they do save the victim).

Difference is, we don't have eps like Mystery Spot anymore.

So very true.
20th-Mar-2015 01:13 pm (UTC)
Fly-by hi! *waves*
I'm so happy to read you enjoyed this one! Happy you makes happy me. :D

(Nope, no comments or vote from me. I'm just not with it anymore. Still watching though.. damnit. LOL) ;D
22nd-Mar-2015 01:54 am (UTC)
Hey honey!

I'm trying to be more positive! It had many of the elements I enjoy of the show. And as long as I don't think too hard about the over-all story line I'm in a better place about it. :)

*hugs* Hope you're well.
21st-Mar-2015 07:04 pm (UTC)
I haven't read all the comments yet, but the last scene made me yell at Dean (in the car driving to work later cuz I couldn't very well wake the kids and the hubby at 4:30 a.m.!) He sounds so fatalistic, like he did in "Faith" or in Season 3, and he can't see (or won't admit) how that affects Sam. Sam seems more desperate than he's been before, and I know he was just in a fight so he should look bruised and beaten, but he also looks ill, and I keep thinking about Jared and his suicide prevention campaign and all I can think about is Sam killing himself as a way to save Dean and now I've totally depressed myself ;(
22nd-Mar-2015 01:24 pm (UTC)
Argh! That is depressing! I don't think either of the boys would suicide. They might sacrifice themselves for each other, but out and out ending it is against both their characters (and I think Jared would put him foot down if Sam was called to do it. Unless it served as a purpose to show how keeping on fighting is the way to go). That's not to say there won't be some sort of death at the end of the season (though I'd seriously be surprised if it's either of them as every season seems to end like that…;D)

Dean is fatalistic though and I'm not sure why he's had such a change of heart since the last episodes where he was prepared to fight. He knows he could potentially kill Sam so I'm surprised he's not more desperate to find a solution. It does effect Sam, and it was good to finally see some of that in the episode.

But we gotta hang on tight! I figure there's a heap of angst to come yet! Ugh.
21st-Mar-2015 10:01 pm (UTC)
Good... Only thing that worked halfway for me in this worst eppy of s10 that far was the worm.

Usually, I rewatch every episode one time, at least. But rewatching s10e15 would be nothing but wasted time, for moi - and would make moi getting rather miffed again.
*nods firmly*
- Because adding *coughs* Cole to the story [again] the way Jenny Klein did, was an epic fail, IMO.

Alone his first scene: disrespecting Baby's personal space the way he did, made me raise my brows in disbelief.
*raises brows again at memory* SMILEY  - ANIM - Surprised & Kopfschüttel-SMILEY, süüüß photo SMILEY  - ANIM - Surprised amp Kopfschuumlttel-SMILEY suumluumluumlszlig_zpsbhnaouj0.gif

And then, it went better and better... he called Teh Hotties "Sammy-boy" and "Dean-o" like they already were bff's since the Kindergarten. And what, finally, took the bisquit for me, was that he permanently tried to impose himself on Our Boys.

Do you remember s02e03? Where Gordon the die-hard hunter was also calling Sam 'Sammy'? With only one sentence [and bitch face #149], Sam made clear that only his brother has the right to call him Sammy.
- So forgive me, my dear, but I was *coughs* slightly confused, as Sam even doesn't seem to notice, this time. Au contraire, he actually brought his former torturer a piece of cake! Does that mean that we went from "T-1000" (o-tone El Deano in s06) to complete Alzeimer & Maso!Sam in s10, meanwhile?
- Aside from the fact, that Hottie #1 usually would've kicked the assbutt across the country just for calling him "Dean-o" - or not respecting Baby, alone.
*glares* SMILEY  - ANIM - Dampf-ablassendes Smiley, cuuute! photo SMILEY  - ANIM - Dampf-ablassendes Smiley cuuute_zpstnag4idb.gif

Oh dear.
Well, I've read the comments above me and your answers, honey, so I know you see that episode [and Sam's *coughs* strange acting] more as a mirror to all his efforts to save Dean.

Sorry, but I can'r follow you that way. Not with this horrible written episode, at least.
Because I really thought in s10, the times of silent!Sam were over and the brother started talking and listening to each other again.
What Dean is still doing. But not Sam. And this is pissing me off, to be honest. Because it was always Sam, who wanted "no more secrets."

Phew. Okeh, sorry for my rant, sweetie, but this was brooding inside me since I finished watching the episode.
- If it wouldn't be so annoying, I would add said eppy to the already famous "LOL canon" but so... hmm... perhaps, "GRRR canon?"

... But the worm scenes were pretteh creepy, if I haven't mentioned that before. SMILEY - ANIM - Zwinker-Smiley, hehe! photo SMILEY - ANIM - Zwinker-Smiley hehe_zps69kvuetl.gif
*winks & waves*
22nd-Mar-2015 02:18 am (UTC)
Oh hun, I'm sorry to hear it didn't work for you. I get it though. Cole is not an easy character to like - deliberately so I think. He does everything to rub us and the Winchesters the wrong way. Calling Dean and Sam those names plays into that cringe worthy aspect of his character (and also tells us a lot about his actual character).

The reason I enjoyed this one is that it had all the basic elements that I think make up a good episode of SPN - mostly, an interesting MoTW and the boys working a case together. Sure, it had it's usual irritations but I'm trying hard these days to look past those (which, mostly doesn't work I have to say).

Cole calling Sam "Sammy" and neither of them reacting to it has been an issue for many fans I've seen. It bothered me too, but it's something that happened back in S2 and even though us die hard fans remember it - neither the writers, casual fans or the show runner have memories that long. OR if they do, they have decided that a simple nick name is not worth Sam and Dean pursuing. In the middle of all the trauma if Sam had said "no one calls me that but Dean" - it would have come across trite and petty. Sam has moved so far on from that now, that I think it was in keeping with Sam and Dean's characters at the moment. I think Sam's "none taken" showed enough irritation with him. Cole calls them that because they terrify him. It's bravado and I think both Sam and Dean recognise that.

And the secrets thing will ALWAYS be in the show. Dean hasn't told Sam the mortal danger Sam's in (unless it happened off screen) and Sam is trying to find a cure behind Dean's back. Dean not keeping Sam in the loop is very much in line with the Dean we've been seeing lately (sadly, I think) and Sam may be aware of his own danger and that's why he's keen to keep looking. Though, I think it's more about saving Dean when Dean seems to have giving up.

Hard to know!!! I've tried to stop making sense of it all. Far too many inconsistencies. I will tell you though, there's far worse to come. I think the bro angst is only just beginning.../o\ Thanks for sharing your thought. I always love hearing opposite reactions because it makes me think of my own a little harder.
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