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just enough to make us dangerous
10.23 Poll 
27th-May-2015 07:49 pm
Dean Don't make me lick your face
A little late, but I'm still keen to know what you all thought. :)

Poll #2012232 10.23 reaction

I thought the season finale was:

Awesome!! What a great way to end the season!
Pretty good. A mostly solid episode.
Ok. A couple of great moments, but not enough of them.
*meh* Disappointing for a finale.
*ugh* It didn't make a lot of sense and very unsatisfying.
Something else.

I still have a few comments to reply to on my original 10.23 post, and I hope to get to them soon. :))

Hearing Jensen say that the writers write the season finales (since S5) without a clue how they'll get themselves out if it confirms my new found (solid) understanding that there really is no journey from the beginning of a season to the end of it. I did think that maybe Carver had a 3 year plan when he took over in S8, but if they don't know how a season will end, then I have to assume that there's been no thought put into any continuous character or myth arc journey. And it's clear now that he didn't. I'm not saying that's a bad thing (and I don't think it would be if you don't watch the show for overall themes or character arcs), just disappointing. To keep throwing the boys into these ethical, moral and personal dilemmas without some sort of resolution is just frustrating. If you make Dean do something like he did at the beginning of S9, surely it has to end some sort of comment about it. Jensen believes that the MoC story started for Dean at 9.01 (which I agree with), but I never got the sense that the show/writers thought that. They both suffered as a result of it and yet neither seem to have come away with any understanding it. Though, maybe there's a plan in that. If they understood any of that they would be too "healthy" to be our beloved, screwed up Winchesters…;)

Aaanyway. I could yabber on about all that for ages, but I'm not sure there are any answers. If they don't write in answers (and jump from idea to idea) then I'm just not sure it's even worth nutting out. Though I'll always be interested in fanon ideas… :D
27th-May-2015 12:05 pm (UTC)
I cried, I gasped, I cried some more, I breathed a huge sigh of relief, then I gasped again. As soon as the credits rolled I felt like I'd seen a pretty damn perfect episode. Still reeling!
27th-May-2015 12:27 pm (UTC)
Great to hear! It did have some gasp worthy moments that's for sure! :D
27th-May-2015 12:28 pm (UTC)
I've finally recognized that what we're watching now is an action soap opera. Which is fine if you like soap opera, I suppose. What I find disturbing is the recent conversation about this show being marketed to young me between 18-30. I believe the original 5 seasons told a morality tale about the dangers of the hero myth. It highlighted the corrupting effects of living with a wartime mentality. The intention was to highlight a contemporary problem. Now the show has become part of the problem. It troubles me that it is rubber stamping increasing levels of violence and marketing it to young men as heroic behaviour.
28th-May-2015 10:57 am (UTC)
Both these points are very interesting.

Firstly, I still struggle with believing the show is marketed to men between 18-30. I don't doubt the info, it just seems crazy - considering the "soap" element surely isn't appealing to that demographic. I know the thing my hubby hates most about the show is all the "chick flick" moments (and that's from S1!). I would have said this demo would be into lots of action, less bromance and more kick ass women (maybe?).

I hate the thought that Show is promoting or rubber stamping the boys level of violence and world endangering behaviour as heroic. I still think there is a level of "comment" about all that, even though it's not obvious - or perhaps it's they way I am choosing to read it. I think there is definitely a level of heroism portrayed by the boys, but it's been a long time since I've consider them as actual heroes - they just do to many things that put others and the world in danger due to their selfish need to keep the other alive. That said, I think it's that theme that's still interesting to me and I sincerely hope they do explore that much more next season.

27th-May-2015 01:09 pm (UTC)
I loved it while watching it. Got swept away by the action, the emotion and the unexpected. I cried when Sam pulled out the photos of the family for Dean. Later I felt nearly guilty for feeling this way (the ep, not just the one scene). As if I was betraying the "old" Supernatural with proper season myth arcs and character development and such. As if I was now just getting high on "insta drama" and action without real depth. Fast food.. Does that make me weird? This ep really grabbed me, pulled me in. Left me shocked. And yet it is like I'm cheering for a different show. That I have a different relationship with. (Since Carver). It's strange.

Edited at 2015-05-27 02:44 pm (UTC)
28th-May-2015 11:04 am (UTC)
I think it's great to cheerlead the show! I am constantly looking for any little bit that makes me have that squee that I used to feel. And there were a few moments this season that definitely had me doing that. I had a tear at that very moment too! And I loved that. I desperately want to feel that and I love that the show can still do it.

But I know what you mean. There are times I don't want to give Carver anything - not a single tear! But actually, it's the Js commitment and performances that I'm giving my heart to. There's no doubt about the love and commitment everyone puts into the show so there are times it's hard to be overly critical. It's just those moments when you want to shake it and say "I know you can do better!". (actually check out galwithglasses comment below. She sums it up rather perfectly).

27th-May-2015 01:28 pm (UTC)
I think most shows are written like that though hun, unless they have a ten or fifteen year plan, which would be hubris personified, then most show runners have no clue after their initial ideas have run their course. I think half the fun is seeing where it goes and how :)
28th-May-2015 11:06 am (UTC)
That's true. And as it goes, they probably fair better than some. Though I have no idea because I've never followed a show this long - not have I been as invested or focussed on story lines etc. The fact that it's still going and still have a very strong fan base has to be testament to them doing something right…;)
27th-May-2015 01:42 pm (UTC)
What excited me most about this finale was the massive potential for next season - which probably won't materialise on screen but I'm sure will fuel hundreds of bloody fantastic fanworks during hiatus! So I'm all fired up and happy as a result.
28th-May-2015 11:11 am (UTC)
Yes yes!! I love the way it opened up some great potential. To think we have:

No Death - so what happens to all the dying people?!
The Darkness - which could be ANYTHING at the moment!
Cas about to kill Crowley - which might introduce a "new" Cas in S11 maybe?
Evil!Crowley is back!
Rowena on the loose!
The other Stynes seeking revenge
The boys in peril!
And ...

a miserable Impala for not being able to get her boys out of trouble. :((

So yeah. There's room to move, that's for sure. :DD
27th-May-2015 02:09 pm (UTC)
As founder and president of the Jeremy Carver Has No Plan Club, I'm happy to welcome you as a member!

*hands you membership card and bottle of Merlot*
28th-May-2015 11:12 am (UTC)
*proudly pockets shiny membership card and downs the Merlot in a flash* :)
27th-May-2015 02:24 pm (UTC)
What Jensen said makes SO much sense. How do you keep raising the stakes on a show that has already had the apocalypse, Purgatory, a new God, the angels falling from the sky? You can't! So they come up with shit that comes out of nowhere. I was soooo pissed. I'm tired of being pissed after I watch the show.

The brother moments grabbed me, Rowena grabbed me, as for the rest? That ending, JFC. Anyway, I'm in a ranty mcrant mode so I'll stop there.
28th-May-2015 11:17 am (UTC)
haha! Well, I've been enjoying some of the excitement for the potential for next season so that's helped me accept the problems that arose from the finale.

I have NO idea how they can possibly raise the stakes higher than they already have - I think fans will probably come up with awesome ideas that can't/won't be realised next season. A "real" apocalyptic landscape would be amazing, but I just can't see how they'll manage it -not just because of their limited budget, but their MoTW format wouldn't fit (though maybe one ep?).

We'll see I suppose.
27th-May-2015 05:27 pm (UTC)
It felt a little scattered to me, not 100% coherent. But I still loved it. I felt dread before I watched it, like, will this be a terrible episode? Or will it be one of those episodes that destroys me? It kind of destroyed me, and that's a good thing. I can't wait to see what The Darkness will bring, and I totally agree with amberdreams about hellatus fanworks. I'm hoping for Dark!Sam and Dark!Dean, but I know we've already had those, so we're not gonna be lucky enough to get them again, lol.
29th-May-2015 06:46 am (UTC)
I felt dread too! I was SO relieved when it finished and I wasn't feeling depressed about it all. I mean, I was head scratching, but not thinking WTF?! They wouldn't do that?! I also felt that at least there was an attempt to resolve things - especially the MoC, so that was also a relief.

Can't wait to see what fandom produces over the break! I think the ending opened up all sorts of possibilities. :)
27th-May-2015 05:41 pm (UTC)
To keep throwing the boys into these ethical, moral and personal dilemmas without some sort of resolution is just frustrating.
Yeah, this. On their place I'd try to think out some arc just in case, even if it would be to change on the way... Also, don't they talk with each other, or what? However, I must say I very much appreciate Jensen's honesty about it. The irony is, it's not even his fault - he suffers on it as much as we! it's the material he gets to work with after all - and yet apparently he feels he owes us an explanation for the writers' faults. There's an idiom in my native language for such things: "to shine with one's eyes for someone / on someone's behalf", meaning that the one doing shining is in a pretty awkward position.

As for the season finale, it had good moments, but also awful and bewildering ones (Death's death??? come on... Also Dean seemed to change his mind and feelings - or lack of thereof - by a minute, back and forth; this was really confusing, and still I'm not really sure what it was about, exactly). Still, I'm interested what's next. (Especially if the lack of death in the universe is going to be a thing. A problem to cope with and all.)
29th-May-2015 06:51 am (UTC)
I would love to hear what Jensen (and Jared) really think about the material they are given. I know they have "spoken" to Carver in the past - and Jared has expressed his dislike of what they did to Sam in the beginning of S8. I suppose they are just the "talent", so would mostly have to go along with it all. But I would also suspect they have a bit of power also. It seems the shows continuation is solely dependant on then - so they would have a bit of leverage I'd think.

I am hoping they do something interesting with the lack of Death in the universe. It would mean them going back to check past canon, and I'm not sure how often they do that. The boys are going to have a lot of "undead" people on their hands if there's no death. Hmmmm…zombies maybe...
27th-May-2015 08:00 pm (UTC)
Like we discussed earlier, I'm enjoying it more now that I'm not trying to make a whole lotta sense of it, and I'm staying unspoiled. Having no expectations going in is waaaay helpful.

My initital reaction was "Oooh, Deano-o, hot. Er, okay, what? Yay, Rowena! SAM, DON'T CLOSE YOUR EYES, DARLING BOY! Nooooo, not Death! For realz??"

So I was kinda all over the place, waffling between delight and kinda scoffing. I haven't watched it a second time yet--just got busy--but I probably will tonight, so that I can niggle the details.

Writing for TV seems to be pretty loosy-goosie. They may have a generalized end game for a season, but how they get there is totally fluid throughout the year. Which is how having a really opinionated and more thorough head writer/show runner (Kripke) could well succeed where a less focused one (Carver) doesn't quite so much. (This is just my observation.) Carver may be a lot more pleasant to work for, however. Not such a nit-picker.

I'm a little torn on The Darkness! If they keep it this big amorphous, inhuman chaos ... I'll dig it. If they try to personify it, though, like cram it into a meatsuit? MEH. I'd love for them to go all post-Apocalyptic-ish with it, have The Darkness alter the world (a la End'verse!) That could be super cool and reinvent SPN's universe once again. They didn't go there with the Leviathan storyline, though, so I don't know if they'd have the gumption to do it now. But that's my hope!

I've also heard lots of fan talk about potentially needing archangels to defeat The Darkness, and that might mean freeing Lucifer and Michael. O.o! Oh, man, that would SO be my jam. And if Adam got sprung but has long since become a demon? *gets a little excited*

So, hmm! While this may not have been the most bombastic or surprising season ender we've witnessed, it could go places. I'm kinda looking forward to see where they take it!
28th-May-2015 12:29 am (UTC)
I hope you don't mind if I jump in here, I just really like your comments and want to agree that I hope they keep the Darkness as inhuman chaos, as you say, I think that could really bring some horror movie style feels. Ok that's my two cents *disappears again*
27th-May-2015 11:45 pm (UTC)
I have to agree that it's been really directionless. A lot of 'let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks.' They've bailed on unpopular storylines but not early enough to ignore them so then they've just felt dropped. The crew does one thing with lighting etc. but then those cues don't go anywhere. Hello, fuzzy, overly colorful dreamlike Amelia, I'm looking at you. A lot of it has been rehashed S1-5 with the boys reversed and they are cramming characters into a plot they want rather than following a natural development of the characters. They keep getting stuck with trying to make some sense out of a whole season of episodes with the first episode, the hiatus cliffhanger and the last three or so eps. They are also stuck trying to outdo the previous big bad until now we have Ultimate Darkness. Next, chitauri.

I have to say that they are still managing good stand alone episodes though. They've also introduced some pretty interesting characters. They've been really fortunate with their casting and had some awesome guests. I'm tired of characters getting killed off so that somebody has to Do Something as a response though. That kind of storytelling gets weaker as the seasons progress. Why get invested and care when we know they're all doomed anyway? (Except, apparently Metatron...wait, what?) They've also got a couple of long time characters that it has taken seasons to develop some type of consistency with. Cas and Crowley have both been all over the map as far as a particular version of these guys we are going to see in any given season. Frankly, even Sam has had a lot of variation in they way they've written him. Don't even get me going on retcon.

As bothersome as those things have been, the worst thing for me is that in pursuit of some sort of direction to take these seasons, they've set up some scenarios that shouldn't be finished without some sort of positive resolution. This show sucks at aftercare. They dump huge amounts of heavy nasty emotional crap on the Winchesters and their relationship and then la la la Dean helps Sam off the floor and we're all supposed to be excited that they are on the same page again. Yeah, just no.

I know that everybody gets something different out of each season and that what I'm saying here is all just my own reaction to it all. I hope people are still enjoying it. It seems like they are so I've just been pretty quiet about it all. For me, SPN has made Dean nearly unredeemable and I don't know what to do with that. I no longer see why these guys should stick together and the 'because he's my brother' has lost its appeal or even believability for me. I can't believe I just wrote that. I started this comment calm and level-headed and ended up in tears. Jensen and Jared, as well as the guests they have, work really hard to deliver the great performances they do (to the point of bloody exhaustion) and the crew and directors still do a bang up job with the look and feel of episodes. Individual writers can step up to the challenge but without an overall complete skeleton to hang the episodes on, it feels choppy and like they don't know where they are going either. The disorganization shows no matter what kind of production quality they have. They can't be assembling what they think is a t-rex when it's actually an elephant. The trunk has to go somewhere and the teeth are really weird.
28th-May-2015 03:02 am (UTC)
That last sentence was brilliant. *hands you tissues*
28th-May-2015 03:04 am (UTC)
As some others have also said, I enjoyed the episode while I was watching it and was engaged emotionally throughout, but I think that's more due to the acting and the cinematography than the actual plot. When I looked back over it, I was just plain confused about some parts and had to do some handwaving for others. I've gotten accustomed to doing some of that, but I'm never going to like it.

I still love it though, despite my wish that it would be more coherent.
29th-May-2015 11:30 am (UTC)
Exactly. I was (mostly) engaged also and reacted emotionally at the end, but boy did it leave some questions. I would like to think they'll address some of those next season, but actually I'm becoming pretty good at accepting they won't. I would say they'll just pick it up with something they think will see them through the first half of the year - not addressing the new canon (so does Lucifer have the Mark still like Cain did?) and having neither boys reflect on their actions.

Hoping to enjoy my new found "easy watching" next season…:))
28th-May-2015 12:39 pm (UTC)
It's a disappointing thing to hear, but I'm not sure if it really surprises me. But it is a complicated issue isn't it? I mean we are going into season 11 now, and so I guess it must be harder to have say a 5 year game plan, when you don't know how many more seasons you're going to get, or how long you're going to showrun etc. Saying that, Kripke had a five year plan and I don't suppose they knew for sure whether they were going to be able to tell all five years of it!!

*shrugs shoulders* I'm going to go into this next season with an open mind, and keep avoiding spoilers, and just enjoy the ride. In the meantime there's bound to be plenty of lovely fanworks to enjoy over the summer!!!

29th-May-2015 11:33 am (UTC)
It's no easy task, that's for sure! And with 10 years and still going they are obviously doing something right. I know they are never sure how many seasons they'll get, but I'd love to think they could create one whole season knowing where and how it's going to end. I'd also love to see some resolutions to come of the ethical issues they raise. But yeah, maybe it's not about that any more. I think, for Carver, it's about the drama and soap element without any real thought into how it connects to what's come before or after.

I'm looking forward to the fan work! (speaking of which…I gotta PM ya!)
30th-May-2015 01:21 pm (UTC)
i checked pretty good, something i forgot to add, if they start fighting again, i might cry too.
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