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11.09 reaction/review (part 2): An issue of consent.  
14th-Dec-2015 08:47 pm
Hurt!Sam
Warning. Potentially triggery content.




I'm separating this from my previous 11.09 reaction post due to content that some people might like to avoid. Namely, Sam's (implied) rape when he was in the Lucifer's cage.

The re-visiting of Sam's rape created the most tension for me during the episode. I found it very distressing and unsettling. I appreciate this is a horror show and it really lives up to this genre whenever Mark Pellegrino's Lucifer is on the screen. The very fact that the episode opened with Sam being touched by Lucifer set the tone for their exchanges throughout the episode. The threat was constant and I believe it was mirrored by Dean and Amara's scenes. I'm not sure if it's clever manipulation to create the horror or crass trivialisation of a very serious issue. I do know that the issue of consent is a constant one in Supernatural - I'm just not sure they are fully aware of that.

Before I say more I thought I'd look at the dialogue that implies Sam was raped when he was in the cage after he returned Lucifer to it at the end of 5.22. I appreciate that some will have different interpretations of this dialogue, but as this has been re-visited again in S11 (they could have taken a different tangent), I'm convinced they are making it clear this is what happened to Sam. I have seen some interpretations that these could only be referencing Lucifer's possession of Sam, rather than actual sexual assault. I think it does have that meaning also, but there's just too many direct references for it being only that (and it's believable that Hell would consist of every conceivable horror, including rape).

The first major piece of dialogue (and probably the most direct and disturbing) is from (6.11) Appointment in Samara:

    Sam: My brother found a way to put it back in me. I don't want it.

    Balthazar: No, you don't. No, no, 'cause Michael and Lucy are hate-banging it as we speak.


After Sam's memory wall is broken he starts to have visions of Lucifer. These are tricky because they are only Sam's hallucinations - it's his mind creating these. But he would have had reasons for thinking this. From (8.02) Hello Cruel World:

    Hallucifer: Hi, Sam. Long time, no spooning.

    Hallucifer: You’re still in my cell. You’re my bunkmate, buddy. You’re my little bitch, in every sense of the term.


And then again later in 7.15 Repo Man. This is the first time the word rape is actually used.

    Hallucifer: The rapier wit, the wittier rape. Come on. I'll be good.



As the season wore on nothing more became of this - other than seeing Sam's fully tortured soul in (6.22) The Man Who Knew Too Much. It's nothing Sam spoke of or was referenced again. Much like Dean's experience in Hell. There were implications that he was sexually assaulted in hell also, but it was never spoken of by Dean.


And now that Lucifer is back, the suggestions continue. Sam's first vision is Lucifer touching him, followed by a feeling of calm. It's pure seduction - like Amara's seduction of Dean (I believe it's no accident that both brothers have mentioned a sense of calm from their seducers). We don't know this until the end of course, but looking back at that scene and knowing that Lucifer has been sending Sam the visions, it becomes clear.

11.09-Sam-with-L-hand-on-face

11.09-Lucifer-touching-Sam

When Lucifer first sees Sam, his first words reference touching:

    Lucifer: Sam Winchester. My old roomie. Hug it out?


Mark's delivery is always so smooth and suggestive. During their exchanges Lucifer tries to break down Sam by using his fears and faith against him. He also wants to use Sam as a vessel (which has been his aim the whole time it seems) and even though Sam desperately wants his help he says no (*cheers* Sam on). But "no" is not what Lucifer wants to hear.

By the end of the episode we are left with this chilling line:

    Lucifer: Hey, roomie -- upper bunk, lower bunk, or you wanna share?


It's suggestive and disturbing. No wonder Sam cried. His terror was palpable (I would love to know Jared's interpretation of all this). I believe we are left with no doubt that Lucifer will do what ever it takes to break Sam so he agrees to let him in. To be his vessel once again.

I think it's worth noting the parallel with Dean's seduction. I am utterly confused by some suggestions that Dean and Amara are being set up as a romantic couple. There is no romance here. The touch and kiss is as non-consensual as Sam's experience. Both boys are being used as a way to a means. Non-con/rape is power, not love.

Sam's flashbacks feature him being physically tortured by having his skin pulled by hooks (bad enough I know!). Showing more would be probably not get past the censors. It makes me wonder if they used Dean and Amara's kiss as a way to show what they couldn't with Lucifer and Sam.


11.09-Amara's-hands-on-D's-face

After the kiss Dean is completely shocked and asks "what was that?".

11.09 kiss

Whereas Sam was able to say "no", Dean wasn't even given that choice.


What does it all mean?

I have such mixed thoughts about all this. Non consensual possession has been a theme since demon possession was first introduced in S1 (Phantom Traveler). Demons simply don't ask to be let inside. Angels needs their vessels to give permission, but from what we've seen, it involves a lot of manipulation. Possession is about loss of autonomy and free will - something Sam is particularly familiar with.

I suppose my biggest concern is about the way they are going to handle this. I suspect, like the implications from S6/7, it is there only to enhance the horror of it all. We might get some post traumatic stress, but as the show doesn't really delve into these themes I doubt we'll ever get it fully explored (which I'm possibly ok with because I know the structure of this show). I also suspect it will be left ambiguous, leaving the interpretations to the viewer. I mostly worry that they will treat all this as they did Sam's non-con possession in S9. They will make him become the "bad" guy and he'll somehow be made to apologise for becoming a victim again (as he did in S9). If they manage to link this with what happened to him in a way that allows him (and Dean) to properly address what happened back then, I will be impressed. But I don't hold out too much hope for that to be honest.

It's an extraordinarily dark theme and one I truly hope they know what they are doing with.
Comments 
14th-Dec-2015 01:11 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure they realise the implications of the theme they are sporadically alluding to. I get the feeling if they were to read in depth reactions like this one they would probably say we are reading too much into it, and yep, that is more worrying really, because it means they won\t address it and we the audience will be left to our own devices to cope with the aftermath.

I don't see there's any hint of romance between Dean and Amara - their interactions are full of menace - how can having your mind bent be romantic? Oh wait - 50 Shades, anyone?
14th-Dec-2015 01:22 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure they realise the implications of the theme they are sporadically alluding to.

That's worrying. That they'd consider reading "you're my bitch in every sense of the word" as over reading then yeah, that would be concerning. That said, I actually don't think they have plans to address this issue because all the dialogue is "implied". Nothing has been said directly. Or they are mostly just referring to Lucifer being inside Sam's body as possession (surely they must be aware of the double entendre though).

how can having your mind bent be romantic? Oh wait - 50 Shades, anyone?

Well, yes. I believe there's some fandom furore of the shipping of Dean and Amara, but I consider that completely different and separate to whether canon shows them as a romantic couple. But maybe that's interpretation also. Some people might actually see this as romance.
14th-Dec-2015 01:27 pm (UTC)
My honest opinion is that us fans have thought through the implications and ramifications of what Supernatural gives us much further than TPTB do. And the fact that there are so many episode writers means that the follow-through on secondary themes are hit-or-miss, based on whether it's serious or flippant or non-existent to the writer(s) of each episode.

It's frustrating when important issues get dropped--or worse, trivialized--OTOH it's also part of what makes the show irresistible: taking what we're given and analyzing, extrapolating, completing the bits and pieces we get.

Do they know the effect of implying Sam was raped by Lucifer? Probably not a matter of great importance to the people in charge--they are using the rape reference as a shortcut for all the horrible things Sam suffered at Lucifer's hands, and that's all it needs to be in their eyes, because in 42 minutes the focus needs to be on the immediate story.

I'm sorry to say you probably will be disappointed in getting any satisfactory follow-through...but that's what fanfic is for, right?
14th-Dec-2015 01:42 pm (UTC)
*nods* Well said. :) I actually don't expect them to delve deeply into this - in terms of the trauma being addressed. I still hold out hope that Sam's many possessions are talked about between them though (particularly the angel one), but I doubt they ever do.

I did wonder with all the continued implications if they were actually heading somewhere with it. But, nah. Probably not. Perhaps just the horror of is all they're aiming at.
14th-Dec-2015 01:50 pm (UTC)
If the show itself has the perspective of Sam being in the wrong, as it appeared to do in the past when he was a victim, then that would be horrible. But if Sam does feel bad/guilty afterward, it's what I would expect given his character and how poorly he and Dean deal with/suppress their issues. They're grown, courageous men, but in terms of psychological development they're still damaged children.
14th-Dec-2015 02:03 pm (UTC)
Yes. Sam and Dean blaming themselves for, well, everything is part of their characters. It's horrible, but definitely in character. It's when the Show adds it's own commentary on what the characters have done that I struggle with (as in adds judgement or create scenes where one comes off as the "bad" brother).

They're grown, courageous men, but in terms of psychological development they're still damaged children.

Oh god yes. :(
14th-Dec-2015 03:08 pm (UTC)
I love your analysis! It's pretty much exactly what I thought too after the epi :)

It makes me wonder if they used Dean and Amara's kiss as a way to show what they couldn't with Lucifer and Sam.

Oh yes! Great observation, and I think you're right! This kiss was as much non-consensual as Sam's interactions with Lucifer, but more... "appropriate" to show on TV. (Which opens up a whole different discussion about the stereotypes in our society regarding female to male sexual assault, but I'll let that slide for now...)
So through that kiss, they don't only show what Amara did to Dean, but also what Lucifer did to Sam...
(Just like the fact that the scenes were shown in parallel. For me, it had the effect that the distress I felt in the Lucifer-Sam scenes transferred to the Amara-Dean scenes as well).

I'm not sure if it's clever manipulation to create the horror or crass trivialisation of a very serious issue.

Well, since they went to some lenghts to make the rape aspect so obvious this time, I think (hope?) that it was a deliberate decision in order to show us the horrors Sam's been through, and not to trivialise them. I'm not sure if they will further delve to the subject and connect it to what happened to Sam in S9, for example, or if they let the boys properly adress the issue. I actually don't think so - I don't believe Show would go there.
But I'd be happy enough if they would simply use it to show us the absolute horrors of the boys' lives. Those boys have been through so much. Dean has been in Hell too, and I believe rape would be a "fave" torture method in Hell, not only in Lucifer's Cage. That Sam, and Dean, have been through so much, that they were wounded so badly, makes them real for me. And that they keep fighting makes them real heroes. Those boys are fighters, dammit! :)
16th-Dec-2015 01:42 pm (UTC)
Hi!

I agree I don't think they'll ever examine the actual nature of the torture Sam (and Dean) has endured. I do hope they don't trivialise though. I hope it gives more grounding to just how much they have to fight through (though, I am kind of sceptical, but I'll wait and see before I'm too condemning ;D).

14th-Dec-2015 04:25 pm (UTC)

It seems that they realize exactly what they're doing. The entire second half of 11.09 consisted of parallels between Lucifer's totally non-con seduction of Sam, and Amara's equally non-con seduction of Dean, right down to the face-touching. No way that wasn't intentional. No way they're not going somewhere with this -- this comparison of Sam and Dean's respective situations. (Of course, whether they take it there to fandom's satisfaction is another question entirely. And as you say, TPTB has a very bad habit of dropping plotlines by the wayside, never to be heard from again.)

It's an extraordinarily dark theme and one I truly hope they know what they are doing with.

You and me both. But I certainly applaud them for trying!
16th-Dec-2015 01:46 pm (UTC)
It seems that they realize exactly what they're doing.

God I hope so! This season they has focused more on the nature of possession (or, rather, Sam has talked about saving the vessels which they haven't mentioned in ages) so I hope that does mean they have an inkling of what they are doing with it.

And as you say, TPTB has a very bad habit of dropping plotlines by the wayside, never to be heard from again.

SO many times. I figure Sam will be rescued before "anything" happens which means the whole thing could be dropped - but I figure there's a lot more in store for Amara and Dean, so we'll see what happens there. Actually, I am totally clueless as to where they're going with this, so I am intrigued. :)
14th-Dec-2015 05:14 pm (UTC)
Thank you for the opportunity to think rationally about all this, because it's really, really tough to contemplate for me. I think you make good points about the parallel seduction going on (Sam/Lucifer and Dean/Amara), although somehow Sam's time in Hell with Lucifer seems so much more horrific (Dean was there because the demons wanted him there, not that he wasn't probably raped and certainly tortured). I think the people who make this show must make a point of reminding themselves that it's only fiction, it's only a story, etc. when they're working with these kinds of issues, because otherwise how could they possibly do these horrific things to these characters? I find it (Sam's or Dean's Hell-times) almost unbearable and haven't yet figured out a way to write about it. Certainly the boys never talk about it, as you point out. Nevertheless, it's obvious that they *are* both rape survivors, and of course that's part of their psychology, although surviving what Sam's been through doesn't seem humanly possible. (I go round and round asking myself, "Are they even human any more? How can they be?")

Anyway, thank you for finding away to talk about this difficult subject and make it meaningful. I wish the show would do the same, or at least acknowledge it without making it into a joke (somebody mentioned that Mark Pelligrino joked about Sam "walking funny" at a convention! Yikes!)
16th-Dec-2015 01:59 pm (UTC)
because otherwise how could they possibly do these horrific things to these characters?

That's a good question! They do like to torture these characters (and us with them) and put them in unthinkable situations. I think the implication is definitely there for rape in hell - but I feel that they never really want to say that out loud. It might be too difficult for them to fully think about (but they have put it out there, so I hope they have taken it seriously). I actually suspect that rape is in the same category as other physical torture for them and therefore it's all bundled in together (which is concerning).

I wish the show would do the same, or at least acknowledge it without making it into a joke

This is the thing that worries me the most. Not the fact that they won't delve into it (or the after affects of it) but they make a joke out if it. I saw the controversy around Mark's joke about the rape (and his defence) of it. I'd say Mark is definitely aware of the innuendo of his lines (he plays it like that).

14th-Dec-2015 06:22 pm (UTC)
Very thinky toughts. I have no idea what the show is gowing for, how self-aware they are (or not) and how they want us to respond to the topic.

What interests me, (and is neatly illustrated by your post and highlighted dialog) is that the way Sam and Luicifer talk about IT is very much how victims and abusers tend to talk about it in real life. Abusers with subtle hints and metaphores that only take a clear meaning in the context of their behaviour, gestures and gaze. And victims not naming it either, just physically and emotionally recoilling, or being paralyzed. Not trusting that what they think happened did happen, or that people would not believe them, or that somehow they are to blame. Or even feeling ambivalent about it. For those very reasons it is not uncommon for people not to come forward until many years after the event (if ever).

As such I like the way they approach the issue here, subtle, and just intermittenedly popping up over the course of several years. Very much like somebody who is supressing memories, trying to move on, but inevitably falling back on it again and again.

16th-Dec-2015 02:21 pm (UTC)
Hi. Thank you for giving this extra context. I read somewhere else that Sam's hallucinations matched the way a victim would react to being raped - the act being "hinted" at and never actually named (especially as they are in his mind and memory and not actually "real"). I would love to think this is somehow deliberate, but I suspect it's more about they way the actors have delivered the material and the nature of the way it's written.

I know it would be in character for both Sam and Dean to never say anything. It gives me some hope that they may be aware of what they are doing when they write this. Thank you.

14th-Dec-2015 07:27 pm (UTC)
I found it blatant in season 7, but boy did they up the IT factor in last episode. I mean, short of using the R word, Mark and Jared totally went there in terms of how unambiguous the words and the body language were. My question is what comes next? Seriously? How does show address or NOT what would have happened in the context of Sam and Luci being locked in another cage, even if its short termed?

One of my main gripes with season 7 is how teflon like Sam felt. after all the misery and torture, within 1-2 eps he is suddenly perfectly normal. It made the show feel less realistic to me.. I know, I know I shouldnt be looking for realism in a show called Supernatural, but I think you guys get my meaning. If there is never any emotional fallout from what the story line calls for, how can you tell a real story?

Anyways, Im hoping for a flood of coda or fix -it H/C fiction to help curb the hellacious wait until Jan 20th.
16th-Dec-2015 10:38 pm (UTC)
How does show address or NOT what would have happened in the context of Sam and Luci being locked in another cage, even if its short termed?

Exactly! If they've put it out there so blatantly you'd hope that there's some resolution (or acknowledgement) of IT.

within 1-2 eps he is suddenly perfectly normal.

Indeed. Don't get me started on Sam's miracle "cure" in S7. After a huge effort on their part to give us post Hell Sam (soulless and then broken wall) it all suddenly disappeared in a couple of eps (if that!).

Sadly, I am expecting the same thing again here. I have no idea what the next episode is even about (haven't watched the promo) but unless they manage to get Sam out immediately then I'd hope for something more on this issue.

I'm desperately needing some great h/c fix-its!
14th-Dec-2015 08:41 pm (UTC)
This is how I view it.

I'm happy that SPN decides to address such things as male non-con in the show. It's 100% believeable to me and Jared acts out someone who would have experienced such trauma VERY well.

What I do not like is that they never address it, they only allude to it. I know SPN is all about it's foreshadowing and what the little things but this is such a BIG issue for Sam and for his continuation of his character.

Lucifer touching Sam and telling him these things and the way Sam reacts is very clear but it wouldn't hurt to at least bring it up somehow? It seems like maybe that is where we are heading.

They really bonked us over the head with the 'hints' talking about top bunk and wanting to share a bunk. It really seems like they're going somewhere with this.
14th-Dec-2015 11:05 pm (UTC)
Thats exactly why im all confused. Show is never subtle, so for them to repeatedly strongly insinuate, hell they out right said it, just using metaphors, where are they going with this or is it going to be glossed over on the 20th? ?
15th-Dec-2015 03:43 am (UTC)
Firstly, I just want to thank you for taking the time to write on this, and so thoughtfully. It is indeed an extraordinarily dark theme, and thus it is difficult for most of us, but still more difficult for some of us. So the fact that you've opened the discussion is pretty great.

The way show has been dealing with this has been bothering me since S6. I've always imagined that they just use it as throwaway, that they're not really thinking about what they're implying. Some people think it's funny, which is what I was saying in my comment on your last review. I mean, remember Time for a wedding? Ugh, that episode. It physically makes me ill. I recently forced myself to rewatch it for the first time since seeing it originally, telling myself I could handle it, but I really couldn't. The cavalier way that they treat Becky's treatment of Sam.... and even as he's in the midst of dealing with Hallucifer! just, it's too much. That ep is most definitely crass trivialization.

But I think, honestly, that that one stupid ep has overshadowed any bit of trust I may have had in them to deal with the matter properly this time around. And the way things are looking after this ep, I just, honestly I'm pretty scared. There's the victim-blaming, there's the fact that it seems to be written just for laughs or for horror. I just wonder if they have any idea what kind of message they're sending and what kind of hurt they may be inflicting.

You've given me some hope that maybe they are being a little more thoughtful this time, though, what with the paralleling of Sam/Lucifer by Dean/Amara. I mean, by no means am I going to get my hopes up that they will actually deal with this in any meaningful sort of way, but at least they seem to be somewhat conscious of the implications.
17th-Dec-2015 10:37 am (UTC)
Hi. Thank you. I wasn't sure how to approach this as it is a difficult subject. I thought it was worthy of discussion as the show has definitely made the suggestion.

I think the history of the show is definitely why some people are so wary. There's the Becky episode - which was designed purely for laughs, and then Sam's non-con S9 possession which was designed for…actually, I have no idea what it was designed for. It ended up meaning nothing for Sam (which I will never forgive them for) and it made Dean feel guilty enough to take on the Mark. The show does not have a good track record on dealing with non-con.

The fact they mirrored it with Dean/Amara might mean they're thinking this through a little more -but I am worried that it will just fall into the abyss once they've moved past this part of the story. We'll see. I will be happy to be wrong! :)
15th-Dec-2015 06:51 am (UTC)
Just dropping in here to check in on the season...

Holy shit. That is dark and disturbing. And it all reinforces my coauthor's and my original drive, five years ago, to write a SPN story where we take the trauma FUCKING SERIOUSLY. Where we map out every agonizing step to recovery, including all the steps backwards. (And also where we cut out all the angel/demon mythology and repeated resurrection crap, sticking with a more familiar story of childhood trauma and the struggle to form a meaningful life and adulthood together.) I can't imagine going back to this version, now, where your heart's being gutted with no guarantee there'll be follow-through on what the hurt actually meant. DDD:
17th-Dec-2015 10:42 am (UTC)
Hi there!

Yep. It's pretty dark and I don't think their intention will be to look at the implications too deeply. Man, I'd be happy if they just acknowledge it outside of leering innuendo. The season has been quite weird. I've loved it for all of the Sam pov we've been getting and if they actually take what went on in this episode seriously, then they'll be doing something they haven't done before. But. History tells us they won't be, so I'm not holding out hope. I don't expect them to delve too deeply into the agonising steps of recovering like your wonderful story does (because it's simply not the show for that), but I'd like to at least feel confident that they know what they are "playing" with. It needs to be more than a game of creeping us out for the sake of it.
15th-Dec-2015 07:27 pm (UTC)
The actress who plays Amara made a joke tweet about the bunk buddies line during live-tweeting and Jared favorited it.

Bob Singer literally pretended not to know what the word "consent" meant on stage at a con.

Don't get me started on 9.1

This stuff will never be treated with respect because the people who run the show don't even get what they are doing when they do it. Expecting anything more from them at this point is naive, to be honest.
16th-Dec-2015 02:06 pm (UTC)
The actress who plays Amara made a joke tweet about the bunk buddies line during live-tweeting and Jared favorited it.

Oooh, I'm curious about that. I haven't seen much from the live tweeting.

Bob Singer literally pretended not to know what the word "consent" meant on stage at a con.

What?! No.

Don't get me started on 9.1

Ok.

the people who run the show don't even get what they are doing when they do it

As I expected. I don't think I'm naive, maybe just ever hopeful. I have no expectation of them doing anything with this subject matter but I would like to hope that they are actually aware of what they are doing (yeah, yeah I know. They don't).

16th-Dec-2015 02:42 am (UTC)
I'm sure that the writers are aware of the implications of the rape reference... it's been brought up so many times in past seasons (as you've mentioned) and to end the ep with "or do you wanna share" shows the weight that those words have.

It's suggestive and disturbing. No wonder Sam cried. His terror was palpable (I would love to know Jared's interpretation of all this).I believe we are left with no doubt that Lucifer will do what ever it takes to break Sam so he agrees to let him in. To be his vessel once again.

That would be a big reversal from season 5, because Lucifer wanted Sam to say "yes" willingly. "I will never lie to you. I will never trick you. But you will say yes to me." All the earlier rape references.... I saw it as Lucifer wanting to get back at Sam for getting him stuck in the Cage again. Of course, Lucifer may have changed since then (giving Sam visions when Sam thinks it's coming from God can be seen as a "trick"), but I don't know if rape would be used as a way to force Sam to say "yes".

I doubt that the the rape implications will ever be explored, because I don't think the show will focus on Sam's feelings about it (other then to show his horror of it, as we saw in the end scene).
17th-Dec-2015 10:46 am (UTC)
I'm sure that the writers are aware of the implications of the rape reference

I do hope so. I mean, I am sure they are aware of the significance of those lines - maybe just not the real implications of them. As in, actual rape.

but I don't know if rape would be used as a way to force Sam to say "yes".

Yeah. No idea. Lucifer could be wanting revenge or just wanting a way out. Hard to know until we see the future eps.

And I agree. Very unlikely we'll get to see Sam's feelings on it all. Weirdly, that would make some sense (as per a comment above about rape victims never speaking of their trauma). I just hope it's not there as some morbid joke and the Show acknowledges the trauma that Sam has experienced (even a tiny scene of comfort from Dean (or maybe even Jody or Scully again?) would be welcome).


16th-Dec-2015 10:27 am (UTC)
To be honest, I still don't think they get it - it's still at the smutty frat boy joke stage with Sam and Lucifer and 'surely there isn't a woman out there that wouldn't faint at the chance to kiss Dean Winchester'..

Yeah, don't get me started, they could surprise me and actually address these things as the horror of non consent I see with a sickening and raging dread, but sadly there are only so many times I can expect a change of stance from these lot, time and time again they've proved they just don't understand some of the deeper implications to the subjects they use.

To enjoy the show I set my viewing expectations bar way down low.
17th-Dec-2015 10:49 am (UTC)
*nods* You're right. I'm pretty sure they don't get it. It makes me wish they wouldn't even go there if they don't know how to deal with it. S9 proved they don't take consent in any way seriously - or seriously enough to allow the victim to feel something about it.

Yeah. Low expectations have been working. And actually, I've really enjoyed a lot of the eps this season.
18th-Dec-2015 09:25 pm (UTC)
im gonna wait til see what you thought of ep 10, before coming back, very disturbing that dialogue, i hope there is better dialogue, i have no faith they will handle this correctly because of the ridiculous dialogue in episode 9 that was allowed on paper :( if this issue is not handled correctly *very disappointed**fans who think that there is something romantic going on with him and Amarra *something is wrong with that picture*

*agrees with your post 100%*

Edited at 2015-12-18 09:37 pm (UTC)
20th-Dec-2015 10:00 am (UTC)
*nods* I'm very curious where they are going with it all also.
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