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just enough to make us dangerous
11.18 reaction.  
8th-Apr-2016 04:08 pm
Lucifer sad face
Short and (not so) sweet.

On the positive side, I liked the scene inside Cas's head (I can't believe what a relief it was to see Misha playing Cas again) and it's always great to see Mark. :)

On first viewing I didn't like Sam and Dean bickering over what to do with Cas but on second viewing (yes, I watched it twice because I hated it so much the first time - I needed to give it another chance and I have to say on second viewing I felt a little better about it. Not great, but better), it makes some sense that Sam would defend Cas's right to choose his course of action (even though I can't understand why Cas took on Lucifer to fight and yet we see him totally disinterested in fighting *shrugs*). Sam knows about choice and having it taken away from yhim. I suppose the argument is that when someone makes a "bad" choice it should be overridden, but I'm glad to see Sam acknowledge it (and time choice is mentioned I'm happy about it). Though, even after 2 viewings I'm not really sure what their final conversation meant. I think it's that if one of them (including Cas) makes a bad choice it can be disregarded. I think? They made a pact about that earlier? Or just then? I iz confused!

Seeing Rowena back didn't surprise me at all. In fact, I had so much eye-roll it was probably the thing that put me in a bad mood for the rest of the ep (*ugh* a spell in her leg). Death means nothing so it doesn't really hold a threat (well, unless it's handled like last week's episode).

Lucifer is God's the first son? I thought that was Michael? Or is age irrelevant when you're an archangel? In other words - a screw up that was missed by, well, everyone on the team.

I was pissed that it made Sam seem as though he doesn't care for Cas at all. With all Dean's (and only Dean's) "CAAASSS!" pleads and Sam pretty much being ignored by both Lucifer (clearly no long his plaything) and Cas ("I saw Dean" "Dean wants me to expel him?" - Well duh Cas. No he wants you to sit on your thumbs and let Lucifer and Amara burn the world), Sam was easily sidelined (though nice exorcism there Sam!).

The myth arc has totally lost me. There's little to no tension (I just wasn't feeling any urgency from any of them. But, I accept that was probably me projecting). There are some writers who can pull of good myth arc eps, but not these two. I just don't get why they give Buckner/Ross-Leeming these big eps. Maybe no one else wants them? It makes me worry for the finale. There will be a resolution (of sorts) of all this stuff and as I really don't care what happens. I fear I will be left non-plussed - again.

But! There's been more good than bad this season so I can happily let it go. I always hope that they will surprise us (which I know they are capable of!) so I'll hang on to that. *g*
8th-Apr-2016 09:13 am (UTC)
The Rowena return put me in a bad mood too - so bloody stupid. How come she is suddenly such a great witch that she has a solution to every-bloody-thing that nobody in the history of the world has ever found these amazing magical solutions before? Gah - it's just utterly unbelievable and ridiculous and I suppose I shouldn't be surprised because these two writers are always doing these pathetic LOL!Canon things because they are too effing lazy to come up with solutions within the parameters SPN has laid out.

Ooops. That turned into a rant! LOL. But really, I fully expected Rowena to return, and I just can't see why she couldn't come back as a demon witch and fill the same slot. It would have made much more sense.

The other thing that made me uncomfortable about this episode (apart from it's general lack of tension and rather obvious getting us from here to here to there) was Misha still isn't doing it for me as Lucifer, and then to have Mark in the episode showing us all how it should be done was like swallowing vinegar.

All that being said, this wasn't a terrible episode. Just not very good.
9th-Apr-2016 03:34 am (UTC)
Yes to all that! Believe me, this entry started off as a rant. ;) Then I deleted it because (dammit!) I want to give the show the a chance. But there was a lot that annoyed me about this episode. Rowena being back is such a *look what we did! Be happy we returned her. Love us for what we did!* move. The laziness does me in. See, I would have accepted that Rowena actually went to hell when she died - that would have made some sense. And maybe from there she was able to connect with Amara (though even that connection makes little sense to me), or something. I just want the resurrections to be something other than "oh, here's something that we can make up to bring her back*. Ugh. Anyway. I might be one of the few who didn't actually like Rowena (though, I didn't mind her) and her death was welcome - it came at a good time.

And yeah, Misha's Lucifer is pretty hard to stomach at times. I've tried to like it. I've even seen moments when I've appreciate what he's trying to do. But he's mimicking Mark, not making Lucifer his own and it just doesn't work for me. I would like to have seen Misha create his own Lucifer (which I think he could do) - it could have been really interesting.

8th-Apr-2016 09:14 am (UTC)
PS Buckner/Ross-Leeming aren't writing the finale are they??????!!!
8th-Apr-2016 10:11 am (UTC)
No, thank g*d!!!
Andrew Dabb is writing it. Normally it would be Carver but he's apparently busy with another show he's trying to get off the ground, I think.
8th-Apr-2016 10:06 am (UTC)
Lucifer is God's the first son?

Of course. And holy fire is a 5 minute trap..
And a simple spell in your leg brings you back from the dead these days..


But I did like the fight inside Cas and thought that he was sedated into stupidity by Lucifer. And him just wanting to watch TV somehow felt right.
And I liked the moment Amara called for attention and that black smoke went into heaven and shook the world up for a moment. (I otherwise do not find her very convincing.)

But yeah, I mostly wasn't feeling any tension either and the mytharc seems.. missing.
Best to let it go, indeed. ;)


9th-Apr-2016 03:38 am (UTC)
and thought that he was sedated into stupidity by Lucifer.

Yes, that would make sense. Crowley did say Lucifer has his hooks in him - meaning he's sedated him (or convinced him not to fight).

The attention seeking Amara moment was good too - it's nice to see what she is capable off. I just hope they don't find a "simple" magic spell that will kill her. It would be such a let down - she's clearly more powerful than a spell. They seem to be suggesting that a "hand of God" item, held in the right hands (maybe sam or Dean??) might do it. We'll see! :)
8th-Apr-2016 10:45 am (UTC)
After all the excitement and sheer joy of last weeks episode, I was prepared to not like this as much, and while it wasn't a wonderful episode, it wasn't all bad either.

I wanted to get back to the myth arc, I wanted to know what Amara was doing, what she planning, and I think the whole story-line needed moving on a bit, which it did, and quickly, we covered a lot of ground and I'd rather they did that then drag it out little by little!!! (maybe I prefer my myth arc eps and stand alone completely separate?)

As for the ending with the boys, I took it as linking back to 11.01, with them not wanting to rewrite the same mistakes and making some changes. It seems like they're (mostly) being honest with each other, and I took it that they're going to let each other make their own choices and try to be supportive of each other rather than get in the way and cause trouble. I could be wrong, I watched this scene a few times to try and understand it, it wasn't clear.

I liked how they've added a twist and sort of said already that Lucifer can't kill Amara with a hand of god, I also liked all the changing sides and allies with Rowena, Lucifer and Crowley, I loved seeing Mark P and seeing inside Cas's head. It moved quickly, and I'm left having no idea where the finale will end. Is God the only one who can stop Amara? Are we going to see Him? Can you stuff Lucifer and Amara in the Empty? What about Dean and Amara connection? Is Sam going to have step up and save Dean from Amara?

Like you say, a few missteps (Lucifer being the first son? A death curing scar?) but I liked that we made progress, that it complicated the myth arc, and that I truly don't know where we're heading. Take care :)
9th-Apr-2016 09:36 am (UTC)
Hey! I love hearing all the positive things about the episode. I must confess I didn't think at first there was any progress made - but now you have listed them I can see some things did happen. Mostly, we know how powerful Amara is and the Lucifer can't kill Amara. It also laid the groundwork for Dean probably being the "chosen" one probably - which means he'll have to find a way to kill Amara, which, by all accounts he can't. I suppose as long as both of them are involved in her demise I'll be happy. :)

I'm sure all those lovely questions will be answered by the end!! (Man, I hope so *g*)
8th-Apr-2016 10:56 am (UTC)
It was boring, ugh, SO BORING. I don't give an effing f**k about this season's mytharc. And Rowena's return annoyed me too.
9th-Apr-2016 09:37 am (UTC)
I must admit I was pretty bored on the first viewing. The second time around I listen more closely to what was going on. I was less bored, but it certainly won't go down as a fave. Onward and upward! :)
8th-Apr-2016 11:06 am (UTC)
Seems to me when it's just the Winchesters and guest stars I get totally immersed in the story and emotions, everything feels real.

The clowns tea party this week? Not so much, even Ackles and Padalecki couldn't keep my attention, Crowley and his mother, god and his sister and the squabbling miserable angels coupled with Collins' cringe worthy performance just reduced the whole episode to a farce, a parody compared with last week and not one tiny little bit involving or believable.

Never mind, I'm sure a lot of people enjoyed it.
8th-Apr-2016 11:50 am (UTC)
The clowns tea party

That made me laugh! I was suddenly seeing them all in colourful clown costumes, sitting at a kiddie table and drinking imaginary tea from tiny cups...
My mind goes funny places when the ep is unsatisfactory. ;)
8th-Apr-2016 12:02 pm (UTC)
Rowena read Harry Potter and made a Horcrux and stuck it in her leg.

What the heck is going on with Cas? Makes no sense...

Crowley was awfully whiny--ugh!

Missing logic--eject Luci from Cas and put him in another vessel to fight Amara? Who are they going to sacrifice to be his new vessel?

Although-during the discussion, the camera focused on Sam?!?

And the last conversation made no sense...

9th-Apr-2016 09:45 am (UTC)
Missing logic--eject Luci from Cas and put him in another vessel to fight Amara? Who are they going to sacrifice to be his new vessel?

They really skimmed over this part. Dean was all "get Lucifer out of Cas" without an idea of where to put him. Sam is the only one who's been able to hold him - but even then only when he was full of demon blood. *hands*

And the last conversation made no sense...

I am so glad I'm not the only one who didn't follow that. It seemed to contradict itself. I have a feeling it was them agreeing that they'd rescue Cas even though it might mean doing something stupid? (like allow Sam to be re-possessed by Lucifer maybe? Or perhaps even Dean?? *argh* I don't know. I'm not feeling confident it will be a good answer).

8th-Apr-2016 01:36 pm (UTC)

We AGREE about almost everything! Wow!

I try to tell myself they just put all the wonderful in last week's ep, and shoved all the boring bad don't care badly written blah into this one....

It was *such* a relief - Misha as Cas - acting less over the top, acting - relateable

I was expecting it to be either a Buckner or a Chermelo episode after last week, and the ridiculous James-Bond-racist opening scene tipped it into Buckner territory, ugh.

I'm probably gonna pretend the Sam-Dean-Cas-choice thing was meant to go with this subtext:

Sam: No, Dean! I'm not gonna put Cas what I went through over and over again! To have your will and subjectivity matter so little it is completely disregarded, to the point that everything you work for, give your life for is undone - and this is framed as "for you", by the people you love an trust the most. The way it erases your sense of self, till you don't even know what you are anymore!

Dean: But Sam, I don't believe this really is his choice! It all happened so fast, and he was in such a bad place emotionally! Maybe if Cas knew we care about him, that he matters! And it's not even like it would undo his choices - he just did it to get Lucifer out - if we talk about it and he still wants to, he could probably call Lucifer back in!

Sam: OK, this makes sense, and I really am worried about Cas! We need to save him!

Dean: By the way, can we talk about me telling you you didn't deserve to mourn Charlie and intended to kill you?

Sam: that was because of the mark!

Dean: We still need to talk about it ffs!!!!

[and scene]
8th-Apr-2016 02:18 pm (UTC)
I like your alternate version much better! With a side of:

Sam: I agree, letting Lucifer out was a TERRIBLE idea, which is why I refused to do it, but Cas did, and now that it's done, let's not make another terrible decision by pissing Lucifer off and foisting him on some other unwilling, probably less sturdy vessel. Let's at least let Cas's terrible decision count for something.

I think Sam's use of "it" was the writers' way of asserting that Jimmy Novak (and his choices) are no longer part of the story, but it didn't play well.
8th-Apr-2016 01:46 pm (UTC)
Agreed on all of this
9th-Apr-2016 09:48 am (UTC)
*thumbs up* (or down, I suppose...)
8th-Apr-2016 06:33 pm (UTC)
I am with you on this one. I loved Rowena but I am not happy to have her back. Why, writers?? Fan service? There is nothing for her to do. I don't buy that Amara needed Rowena to get back to full power. And yeah, so much didn't make sense and angel/demon crap bores me senseless, and there was Not Enough Winchester.

There is definitely more good than bad in this season and it would take a hell of a lot of bad (like, 20 bad eps in a row) to make me even THINK about dropping the show. But that doesn't make it ok to deliver up such bad plotting and writing.
9th-Apr-2016 09:52 am (UTC)
I am puzzled by her return too. If they had always planned to bring her back then surely don't kill her. She could have been wounded, or vanquished until they decided to have her back in the show. This dying and resurrecting is getting tedious (whereas the "flashback" to see Bobby and Rufus again was a perfect why to revisit characters).

But that doesn't make it ok to deliver up such bad plotting and writing.

Never does, but it seems these two writers are on the team and they need/want to use them. The upside is that must be it for them now? With only 5 episodes left surely they can't have any more....*fingers crossed*
8th-Apr-2016 09:47 pm (UTC)
I had troubel to understand what Dean was saying to Sam back in the bunker. I hate it when they are so hard to understand
9th-Apr-2016 09:53 am (UTC)
Deliberately confusing maybe? I'm not sure even Sam understood (or agreed) with the deal.
9th-Apr-2016 04:08 am (UTC)
I expected this week would be a let down after how much I loved loved loved last week's episode - it's hard to have a show that's so uneven! I didn't mind Rowena's return like that, I was just happy to have her back, and I didn't mind whiney Crowley (especially being called on it) and I'll always be grateful when the Winchesters are *talking*. I thought Misha did a good job of being Casifer, even if I'm not very invested in that part of the mytharc...or I suppose any part of it really. It pales in comparison to the emotional intensity of an episode like last week, when it's Sam or Dean's life on the line and their brother is trying desperately to save them. That's what pulls me in and makes me adore this show.

But like you say, there's been more good than bad this season!
9th-Apr-2016 09:58 am (UTC)
Yeah. I was definitely prepared after the amazing episode last week (maybe overly prepared as I really didn't take the first viewing well at all). The second time around I was in a better place and even though I've lost interest in the myth arc (mostly, I am still curious about what will happen with Amara), I could see that they were moving that part of the story forward. I am glad you are liking Misha's Cas! Man, I wish I could. I try so hard to!! There are times I shout (to the screen) "that! You got it there!" but then he pulls that face and...I'm taken out of the moment.:( But I know many are loving what he's doing and that's great. For me I think it's been a good way to involve Misha in the season - it must be a challenge each season thinking what to do with him because as a fully capable angel he'd be too easy to use to just fix things.

Bring on more of the good stuff!! :))

9th-Apr-2016 07:11 am (UTC)
I quite enjoyed this episode. Although there were things that did annoy the hell out of me such as the holy oil only being able to hold an archangel for a few minutes...hello, Gabriel? And the fact that it looks like they're trying to actively make half of fandom hate Sam more. I knew what Sam meant; that Jimmy's body (the vessel) is not actually Castiel and therefore expendable to save the world, a lot of people will see it as Sam not giving a rat's arse if Cas lives or dies which I don't think is true at all.

I loved seeing Rowena back, and the spell kind of made sense to me, she is a witch after all. I'm glad she's back, she's the character I love to hate.

For the first time since Misha started playing Lucifer it didn't make me grind my teeth due to his overacting. I think he actually did pretty well for a change. Although having Mark there did highlight how Mark runs rings around Misha in the Lucifer dept. Catiel's apathy was a bit...odd. The only thing I can think of is that Lucifer has done something to him.

The BIGGEST thing I took away from this episode was the almost anvilish line from Dean regarding the hand of God weapon needing to be wielded by God's chosen. It's now so obvious that the ONLY person who can use one of these weapons against Amara is Dean himself. We know from all the way back to the original apocalypse arc that Dean was heaven's chosen one. The vessel meant for Michael to defeat Lucifer on behalf of God and Heaven. I'd say the final fight will be Dean and Amara which is going to be very interesting as we know he can't fight against her. I'm very interested to see how they resolve that!!

Oh BTW, they screwed up canon AGAIN with the Lucifer being God's first son. It's canon that Michael is. This from S5E13: Michael: Lucifer defied our father, and he betrayed me, but still, I don't want this any more than you would want to kill Sam. You know, my brother... I practically raised him. I took care of him in a way most people could never understand, and I still love him. But I am going to kill him, because it is right, and I have to. And from S5E22 MICHAEL/ADAM: You know, you haven't changed a bit, little brother. Always blaming everybody but yourself. We were together. We were happy. But you betrayed me -- all of us -- and you made our father leave.

Would it kill the writer's to use Superwiki? lol
10th-Apr-2016 04:16 am (UTC)
And the fact that it looks like they're trying to actively make half of fandom hate Sam more.

There are some that actively hate Sam no matter what he does and it's stuff like this that give them even more ammo to hate him with (especially if it's "look he wants Cas dead" - which wasn't at all what this was about).

It's now so obvious that the ONLY person who can use one of these weapons against Amara is Dean himself.

Yep. It's definitely where it's heading. Dean says that he can't do the dead but looks like he'll have to. The thing I think I am interested in at the moment it what part "the empty" will play. It will either be a place Amara may end up or one of the boys. Or, it may never be mentioned again.

Would it kill the writer's to use Superwiki?

There is SO much canon around Lucifer and Michael (a whole season dedicated to it!) so I just wonder what on earth was going on there. Surely they couldn't have made such an obvious mistake. Even Misha was around during that time and would remember some of that (being in that scene). It's what makes me worry about how they are going to resolve it all. But then again, I'm not longer really worry about those things - too much letting down over the last few years.

Still, I've really enjoyed this season and Sam has been written better than he's been in ages. :))
21st-Oct-2016 11:29 am (UTC)
Sorry for the late (and utterly pointleess) reply. I'm currently playing catch up after three years away.

Amara's statement of Lucifer as God's first born was stupid on so many levels. In addition to what people have already mentioned here it completely loses the symbolism behind God and his archangels. After all we are told in season five (Sympathy for the Devil perhaps?) that the relationship between God and his archangels is a parallel to the relationship between John and the brothers. John parallels God the loving father who is less than ideal. Dean and Michael are the eldest sons. The ones who are most obedient to the will of their father, while Sam and Lucifer are the younger ones. The rebellious son who are more willing to go against their father's word. While of course it is only a loose link and the Winchester's are also different in many ways making Lucifer the eldest does lose this symoblism.

Also, I'm only seen as far as this episode at the moment (hope to be caught up by Saturday) but as a Cas fan I never saw Sam's actions as being about not giving a crap about Cas, but a desire to try and respect his decision even if they consider it a stupid one personally. (A sentiment I agree with it was a stupid choice)
24th-Oct-2016 10:38 am (UTC)
Hi there,

Good point about the parallels between God and his sons and John's. It was always such a strong theme, but it was dropped here. Sadly.

I never saw Sam's actions as being about not giving a crap about Cas, but a desire to try and respect his decision even if they consider it a stupid one personally.

I confess I can't remember this episode (I haven't re-watched any of the S11 myth arc episodes). Generally Sam cares very much about Cas and he would respect Cas's decision - especially after Sam's choices are often taken away from him.

Good luck with the rest of the season! :)
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