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11.20 reaction 
5th-May-2016 11:07 pm
That's Just not right
A very short, very negative reaction. Please be warned (I mean it. Not a happy camper - so, you know, don't click).

(*meep* and my comments are full of unmitigated bitterness too. So yeah. Don't read! You know the drill!)



That, quite possibly, has become the most rage inducing episode for me in the history of the show.

All I can say is FUCK THEM and their manipulative, canon and character destroying bullshit. I used to like Robbie, but now I'm just *side eyeing*

(I had a heap of stuff written up but I just couldn't post it. Too ragey and messy. I hope to gather myself and write a constructive crit on why that episode was the ultimate in mockery and manipulation. Or maybe it will come up in comments).

(and no, Dean calling "SAAAM!" didn't make things better - though the hair petting went some way in helping...;D)

ETA: Dammit, I have to add - making God real is the single worse thing they could ever have done. Just think about what he's allowed Sam and Dean to suffer (Rape, torture, loss etc etc). And think about how, with a snap of his finger he could change EVERYTHING. Every. Single, Thing. Curious to see how they write themselves out of that one.
Comments 
5th-May-2016 03:34 pm (UTC)
Hair-petting = always good!

Just think about what he's allowed Sam and Dean to suffer (Rape, torture, loss etc etc). And think about how, with a snap of his finger he could change EVERYTHING. Every. Single, Thing.

This, so much. I was so confuzzled when he said he loves Sam and Dean, because whut. That's how you show your love? Although in a sense he was always the 'missing dad', so we shouldn't really be surprised. :-/ Kinda hoping now that Amara kicks his sorry arse, gets bored of messing with the planet, and takes Lucifer off somewhere. Several problems solved. ;-)
6th-May-2016 12:49 am (UTC)
Well yes. The upside is maybe there will be a conclusion that wipes them all out and Sam and Dean can go back to hunting monsters and saying people.

I suppose, looking back, I've never been a huge fan of the mythos in this world. It's just so grand - so huge, that somewhere along the way it lost it's ability to connect in a way that makes sense. Well, to me anyway.

And maybe - and I think this is more the point, I just hoped that they were going to go in a different direction that actually giving God a persona. I think I wanted Chuck to be some sort of conduit rather than actually God. It just opens up far to many holes for me.

5th-May-2016 04:18 pm (UTC)
I sympathise completely for I've felt like this since the first episode of season eight when Carver didn't allow Sam to look for Dean in Purgatory.

I'm not going to deny there have been some good and even wonderful bro-moments since then, but the lolcanon and poor, poor writing really depressed me, thinking back to how intense the brotherly bond once was.

However, I totally agree that God should have stayed mysterious, at most Chuck could have taken over as his mouthpiece, much as Joshua did in DSOTM.

I was afraid this would happen.
I didn't want God to come into play, but if it did I'd have wanted someone far more interesting and charismatic than Chuck.

Anyhow I feel your pain.
I keep watching for the brothers and only for them. Their relationship is unique for a TV series and I'll stand with them till the bitter end. (hoping it's not TOO bitter!)
6th-May-2016 12:58 am (UTC)
I confess I have been feeling some sort of simmering anger ever since Carver made Sam neglect, not just his brother, but Kevin and all those in need. Character assignation on a grand scale.

I won't deny either that there have been some wonderful episodes. Especially this last season.

I suppose I should be grateful that at least the episode didn't have the brothers at each other's throats. That was nice. :)

A mysterious, enigmatic God is just so much more powerful. I liked not knowing for sure who/what he/she was. I loved the possibilities of what could be done. Now the character is a man, a man who sings at conventions. He's annoying and basically a dick like all the other angels and demons in this verse. Which - I suppose is true to the story. Only people are celebrating his return as though he's some sort of good guy.

Yikes. Sorry, seems my bitterness has carried on this morning.

The brothers and their relationship is what still keeps me hooked. At least it doesn't seem to be heading to a S9 or s10 type finale where a whole season of distrust is bandaged over with a line or sacrificial act.
5th-May-2016 04:59 pm (UTC)
I haven't had time to think through the whole God thing in depth but I actually liked that Metatron got to call God on a bunch of stuff, and thought that was a bit daring (for a US show anyway, given how conservative so many Americans are).

I kind of shelved my dislike of the fact that they already made God a real character a while ago, I much preferred it in the early seasons when nobody believed but as soon as they introduced the angels, that shit became a thing for SPN. So this wasn't really much of a shock, especially since they told us Amara was God's sister and made them ying and yang or whatever. Opposites who are also interdependent - and who does that sound a bit like? Oh yes, like Sam and Dean.

So with all those things already in the mix, I actually enjoyed this episode. Though I also thought it should have been the season finale because that would have been a good place to end things.

Mind you, given your reaction - maybe it wouldn't! I'd have hated season 11 to have ended with one of my fave peeps so angry and upset!
5th-May-2016 07:49 pm (UTC)
God was basically revealed as Chuck in Swan Song already and if that wasn't obvious enough sure Fan Fiction made it clear, so Chuck = God is something that was already a fact for me for a long time.
And as you said, I liked how Metatron confronted him about some things at least. It will be left to see if we get more of that next week now that the boys know it too or if they really just brush it away.
5th-May-2016 05:07 pm (UTC)
I've been telling everyone for years how I didn't want God to actually appear in the show and I really, really didn't want freaking Chuck to be God. I also resent that GOD stated that Sam released The Darkness all by his little old self. Metatron said it was both Sam and Dean and God said, nope it was only Sam. Last night was a rough episode for me.
6th-May-2016 01:21 am (UTC)
You know, I've been smuggly thinking all this time.. "ha! I can't wait for it to be revealed that Chuck isn't God. They've been playing with us. There's going to be a really cool idea behind who God is". But nope. It was Chuck and it now makes zero sense.

All the little digs at Sam in this ep had me smarting also. God saying that "Sam couldn't live with demon!Dean blah blah" making it all his fault. But not just that. Did this story only start in S10? Did God turn a blind eye to the length's Dean goes to to keep Sam around? But of course, it's only about letting out his sister not anything else that has gone before).

Making this real just opens of so many cans of worms. Not least what a dick character he is. He turned off the amulet in everyone's hour of need. He looked Sam in the face in S5 knowing he was going to hell to be raped and tortured. Sorry, but nope. I had a hard enough time forgiving Gadreel for killing Kevin (and trying to like the character) to now be asked to forgive God? Not ever, ever going to happen. Unless they can come up with a remarkable explanation for him being an utter dick.

Sorry. Seems I'm still massively bitter. :(
5th-May-2016 05:42 pm (UTC)
Not only is making God a real character on the show the single worst thing they could’ve done because of all the horrors he allowed to happen to Sam and Dean, but they also completely ruined Chuck. I loved Chuck – he was a neurotic, quirky little guy in a bathrobe who bravely went against Heaven’s plan to help Sam and Dean stop the Apocalypse.

Why do they have to try and ruin every beautiful moment from the earlier seasons? First Cas trampling all over Sam's sacrifice by getting Lucifer out of the Cage, now Chuck is God, and of course the cheap return of the amulet…
6th-May-2016 01:28 am (UTC)
but they also completely ruined Chuck.

Yeah. Why couldn't Chuck just have been a conduit rather than actually God. I was holding onto that hope right up to the end of the episode.

The continuing destruction of past canon and things that I've help dear is bordering on unforgivable to me. I keep defending their motives (I even believed letting Lucifer out would be interesting for Sam's character LOL), but now I'm just seeing sheer manipulation. The clarity from that episode has been rather devastating to me.

and of course the cheap return of the amulet…

Oh man, I haven't even started in on the crass use of the amulet. *sobs*. Maybe because I've never been one of the fans calling for its return it just didn't give me that emotional punch that I think it was meant to. hee, instead I muttered "Oh you've got to be kidding". But nope. Apparently God rescued from the bin (because I will not believe Sam actually had it in his pocket the entire time). He could come down to get his amulet, but not help the boys out. :(
5th-May-2016 06:38 pm (UTC)
Wow, I did not see this reaction coming from you...

I thought they addressed the issue of God not responding to prayers--albeit obliquely--in some of his chapter titles--'why you don't want divine intervention' was one--I saw it as his interference negates free will, and isn't 'free will trumps everything' the show's second main message (after family over all)?

Think back to the djinn episode in season 2--if John hadn't turned hunter, the people the Winchesters saved would have died. Fixing things for one person changes it for someone else...

And Metatron called God on it--said he was a coward...God is flawed too! Which reinforces that he shouldn't be looked to as the Deus ex Machina--only to turn that around and give us God coming to the rescue after all when there was no hope left for the Winchesters!

I couldn't believe that I liked Metatron by the end of it--he is the villain I have hated the absolute most out of all 11 seasons! I couldn't imagine how they were going to turn nebbish Chuck into almighty God, and yet I believed it, from God who just wanted to not be responsible anymore, just wanted to goof around, to the God who got really pissed at being called a coward, to the God who decided to accept responsibility for being too hands-off and get re-involved.

Maybe I get it from the perspective of being a parent--wanting to not be responsible sometimes...

I wish there was a way to make you see what I loved...I'm always distressed when you are :(

Edited at 2016-05-05 06:39 pm (UTC)
6th-May-2016 01:36 am (UTC)
Wow, I did not see this reaction coming from you...

Me neither. And I am really sorry. I go into every episode with the plan to love it no matter what. I had high hopes for this one (hearing so many good things about it) and that might have been the issue. I just wasn't expecting a) God to be revealed as actually Chuck and b) that the amulet would return.

So yeah. I won't repeat my above ranting on your thread (some of what I'm feeling is in the above responses, but it's not fair I rant on your lovely positive comment).

I wish there was a way to make you see what I loved...I'm always distressed when you are :(

Oh me too! I read your post but I think everything people are loving is in fact the things that make my blood boil the most. I'm not sure exactly why I've had such a visceral reaction to it, but yeah. I'm pretty bitter. And I don't want to be!! I hate feeling like this after an episode. I just feel like Robbie used manipulation in the most crass way and I will possibly not be able to get past that.

Though, as I always say, I'll see how it pans it. Maybe I'll just have to steel myself even more for the next 3 eps as they will all be myth arc. Or try to skip them (which, nah, if I continued watching after S9 I suppose nothing can stop me...*g*)
5th-May-2016 06:43 pm (UTC)
I was strangely torn between liking it and feeling like this ep was just a strange dream Sam might have been having in his sleep. Bringing God in as a person (killing Chuck as the prophet he was) was a very unfortunate move IMO, but still I enjoyed what they did with it.
But, yeah, I do understand your anger. xx
Here is some Sam hair to distract you from it..
6th-May-2016 01:39 am (UTC)
I liked little bits of it. But even those bits (Dean stressing over hurt!SAm is always my jam) came across as manipulative so I couldn't enjoy them. And after Red Meat it just felt like a repeat of what we'd seen before.

feeling like this ep was just a strange dream Sam might have been having in his sleep.

I was hoping for this! I was seriously waiting on this reveal that started to make sense of it all. I thought it might have been some alternative universe thing. But nope.

SAM HAIR!! At least there is that this season. \o/ (and some awesome eps to remind me why I love the show *g*)
5th-May-2016 06:49 pm (UTC)
hi Ash. :(. i have a poem i'd like to share with you:

Everything is Sam's fault according to God
RT trashed Sam again
Sam will be left behind

*we need to talk* is code for
*let's trash more cannon*
skipping episode 21

Everything is Sam's fault
sorry, i cant get past that
it's Sam fault if Dean goes off with Amarra

sorry, im really hurt and disappointed right now :(
be back for episode 22
i wont miss a damn thing

there were good scenes in this ep i did like but
some scenes made no sense
episode 21 will add to that



Edited at 2016-05-05 06:58 pm (UTC)
6th-May-2016 01:45 am (UTC)
Yep. God doesn't like Sam. Much like I'm sure the writers don't. Just when I thought they'd turned a corner in that area. Robbie's little jabs at all sorts of things (because everything in that 4th wall breaking opening half was Robbie making some comment about Kripke and writing and fans etc etc. I saw a lovely tweet on twitter saying it was like walking in on someone masturbating. No wonder I felt so awkward during those scenes).

It amazed me how God honed in on that one thing (Sam not being able to live with demon!dean so it's all his fault!) and NOTHING else that Sam has sacrificed for HIS world. Argh. My anger knows no bounds with this.

Aaanyway. It looks like it was loved by many (even though the ratings were the lowest in forever) and that's great. Loving an ep is always more satisfying.
5th-May-2016 07:12 pm (UTC)
Just gonna heaps hugs on you, woman!

You can DM me on twitter if you wanna rage. ;)

(I have very conflicted emotions about the episode, but I know why you're frustrated. I feel ya. There was stuff I superficially enjoyed...*hair-petting, cough*...but I was kept at arm's length by the writing. Didn't make me rage, exactly, because I knew what to expect from RT, but...anywho, ping me if you want!)
6th-May-2016 01:56 am (UTC)
Thank you darlin'! I had a little rant season with JC. That helped at the time. And Bookdhal's comments on twitter strangely helped too. I was trying to pinpoint why I was so bitter about it and she put it into words (as she can).

In any other episode the scene in the police station would have had me squeeing. Hurt!Sam with protective Dean. Hero boys and deadly mist. I love that stuff! But Robbie's manipulation and mocking tone with the rest of the ep just made that even hard to watch. Bringing back the amulet was such blatant fan servicing that I just can't. I said somewhere else (maybe on twitter) that I'm ok with fan servicing (like Baby and Fan Fiction) when it's clearly that they know that we know. As in, they were contained episodes and designed as fan service. I know some don't like that, but I'm ok with it when it's like that. But this episode was actually an important myth arc ep - it was part of the overall story (unlike Baby and FF) and the fan servicing was off the charts. It just felt dishonest to me. And if there's something that I hate in storytelling is dishonestly. Sure, write badly, make a canon mistakes but don't give us what we think we want to make us love you.

And don't make God sing. Sure Rob has a nice voice and it was a lovely song but no. Crossed a major 4th wall breaking line and...*sigh*. Maybe it just shouldn't matter any more. Maybe the show really has been on so long that they can just do whatever they like.

Hee,looks like I ranted without the DM. I suppose this has been my chance to write some of the stuff I was attempting to do in my original post.

Aaanyway. Maybe it's prepared me more for the next 3 eps. I think they're going to be hard going. I'm going to utterly spoil myself before I watch so as not to be blindsided like I was in this one.

*HUGS*
5th-May-2016 10:01 pm (UTC)
Well, I watched because there was no Castiel and I honestly don't know how I feel about it.

It had some very pretty Sam and Dean moments. It was no worse than any of the other angel mytharc episodes but I've hated them. At least the Chuck and Metatron scenes were well acted. I never thought God was anything but a dick, and however much singing, Chuck still is a soulless dick.

The one thing this ep. did to me which I will probably end up hating it for, is give me some hope that we can have a God/Amara battle which wipes all the angel shit out and resets next season as a monsters vs Sam and Dean(and other hunters/family) season. That alone would make the God reveal worth it for me. *edit* Oh, and the beer ironing, while it made me chuckle also aggravated the 'mum' in me. Beer would stain ... unless it's some weird American beer I've not come across.

Edited at 2016-05-05 10:57 pm (UTC)
6th-May-2016 02:15 am (UTC)
Well, I watched because there was no Castiel and I honestly don't know how I feel about it.

Hee, I can't believe I'm saying I think I'd rather have Cas than all the Metatron and God dialogue in the first half of the show.

At least the Chuck and Metatron scenes were well acted.

That I can agree with! I thought Curtis knocked it out of the park. It was the single thing that stopped me fast forwarding through it. :)

I never thought God was anything but a dick, and however much singing, Chuck still is a soulless dick.

Yeah. I suppose at least they didn't try to make God likeable. Or did they? I'm not sure. He sang (just nooooo) so I think there was an attempt to make him forgivable. Or something. I honestly don't know, in terms of the story, what all that was about. So maybe I didn't actually miss some major point (other than Robbie having a dig at kripke).

It had some very pretty Sam and Dean moments.

Always a saviour! And the cinematography was great too. :)

God/Amara battle which wipes all the angel shit out and resets next season as a monsters vs Sam and Dean(and other hunters/family) season.

If this happens ALL will be forgiven! If bring God into the picture is solely about getting rid of Amara, Casifer and possibly all the angels and demons I will admit to being wrong in my feelings about this episode!

Hee - and yes. Beer would stain. Most definitely. But Dean ironing Sam's shirt? Fan servicing, but fun.
5th-May-2016 11:38 pm (UTC)
I'm so sorry to hear this *hugs* I really enjoyed the episode, and it even made Metatron watchable for me!!

For a long time I've loved the idea of absent SPNGod, and how this worked and sometimes echoed Sam and Dean's story. When we found out that Amara was God's sister I suspected that we might eventually see God, and I'm ready to move on to what's next. For me, Rob B was wonderful and showed us the many potential faces and emotions of the SPNGod.

But as Kalliel pointed out, it does feel like Show is giving us a hint of something they think we will love, before ripping it all away and slaying us with the finale.

But there's always 11.17 and 11.19, right? Take care :)
6th-May-2016 06:52 am (UTC)
Hey hun! I'm so glad you enjoyed it! And I agree it was the easiest Metatron to watch yet. :)

But as Kalliel pointed out, it does feel like Show is giving us a hint of something they think we will love, before ripping it all away and slaying us with the finale.

Hee, well, for me the show did that in the episode so the upside is I've probably reached my lowest. They've already ripped out something I've loved on the show (the amulet) so if they take it away again I will probably feel the same as I did when I saw it in the that ep - nothing.

But YES!! There are so many great eps to hang onto. I've loved nearly all the MoTW eps and the bro relationship has been so much easier to watch this season. And who knows, the last three eps might help make sense of this one. :)))
6th-May-2016 12:33 am (UTC)
What a weirdly dysfunctional episode. Parts of it did work for me--all the Sam and Dean scenes and the Chuck/God 'fare thee well' montage because I've always been a sap that way--but the bar scenes rankled like every post Swan-Song angel episode has done.

During the first couple seasons of the show, "demons" worked--largely because they followed a relentless logic that made them terrifyingly real. Demons felt just as real as the boys with their hand-made tools in the trunk and the hilariously seedy motel rooms and the grind of the life Sam and Dean had eked out for themselves as hunters. Demons made sense.

Angels after season 4...they make no sense to me. No sense whatsoever. Boring. An easy out. And unless they find a way out of this plothole, I can't see how "God" is going to fare any better.

Sam and Dean still do it for me, every time (hair petting for the win!) but I really wish the rest of the mythos would disappear into that infernal fog.
6th-May-2016 06:56 am (UTC)
What a weirdly dysfunctional episode.

Haha! That's one way of putting it! :)

I honestly can't see how they are going to get around having God present. If the first thing he doesn't do next episode is ease the world's suffering (without a damn good reason) I will be immediately annoyed.

And yep! Sam and Dean still do it for me. And the upside is maybe with God here he'll take Amara with him (with the angels) and we can get back to the saving people, hunting things. I imagine next season will be the last one, so it will be fitting to have one season free of heaven and hell issues.
6th-May-2016 01:58 am (UTC)

Sorry it didn't do it for you. I am kinda surprised about the rage, though. Haha. Maybe I'm alone but I LOVED it. (And rage/hate always shocks me when I really like something even though "Meh" does not. It doesn't seem like Im ever gonna outgrow that tendemcy) I've always thought Chuck was God...way before I was ever in Fandom and, aside from being right, it has always fascinated me to ponder that possibility because it just fits somehow (in my understanding based on my own particular upbringing and even though the idea of Amara being God's sister has been hard to swallow, the concept of creation and destruction makes sense.)


I laughed out loud regarding the comment regarding Bugs (we tell all our friends who are starting to watch to just skip that one) and was literally moved to tears when Metatron talks about not caring that he was the closest angel to the door because he loved God. I just think they handled something pretty damg well that could, at best, go horribly wrong and, at worst, be completely offensive. Plus, I can't see them introducing God's sister into the mix and not bringing God in. That would have been the real letdown for me. And I probably would have been supremely irritated if it was a new character altogether, even if I hadn't suspected Chuck. Then I would have seen it as a total Dues Ex Machina when I've come to expect a certain symmetry in this show.


Even the distinction that Lucifer isn't a villain made sense because Chuck amended that he "wasn't a villain" after Metatron gave him the universal look for "are you effing kidding me right now?" I didn't catch that on the first viewing and it makes sense that an eternal being might have problems with tenses.


And the Samulet. Wow, wow, wow am I ever happy about that, though I'm left to ponder if Sam kept it with him the whole damn time and God, being God, knew it? Or if God kept it with Sam, hidden in plain sight. Either option gives me all the feels because, either way, it was IN SAM'S POCKET. Oh. My. Chuck. That, alone, is worth the price of admission and deeply satisfying. Maybe I'm easy. Maybe it's pandering. I don't know and, frankly, I don't give a rat's ass if it is.   I am just so glad that the Samulet was important enough to this writer to bring it full circle.

6th-May-2016 02:04 am (UTC)
Hey hun! Thanks for stopping by with your lovely positive comments. I am really am happy so many people loved it. And I know I am out of step with many I am usually in step with!

I won't respond to your points because it won't be fair to harsh your squee. Probably just to say that the things that have been making people squee (namely the amulet and Chuck as God) are the things that have made me rage the most. Sadly because I don't want it to be the case. And maybe once I get used to the fact the amulet is back I will get past the anger I feel about that. In fact, I'm sure I will. It will just take time and perhaps next season *g*
6th-May-2016 05:03 am (UTC)
loved it, loved it so hard ive rewatched it countless times already. Here is my one half of the cents worth of an opinion. I'm an agnostic first of all ,just as a disclaimer I don't believe that there is any sentient being who is taking notes about how many times we pray in what fashion and all the rest of the ceremony that goes around religion. so having said ,that this version of Chuck/ God made perfect sense to me. Yes he's a dick of course he is--- he created all of them! he is also a being of such Supernatural power that we are nothing but an experiment to him he said as much and a disappointment at that ,so of course he would want to run away and hide and pretend to be a nerdy author who played around with his experiments that he maybe did like (or were imp to his story,AKA Sam and Dean). Did he know that horrible things were happening to them? Yes of course he did but again he is so removed from the emotions and the feelings of us petty humans that it would be like watching Tv to something like a God. The amulet is back and I am enough of the sap to celebrate its return and ignore the rest of the garbage ....I don't know what to think about where it's been all this time did Sam have it? Or did God have it? Who knows. the point is that it's back and the boys have it ,I'm a happy girl now..
I do agree with you that the season finale should be God andAmara taking all the angels and Demons out of here and let's get back to the family business at least for the last couple of Seasons please. ;)
6th-May-2016 07:08 am (UTC)
I'm so happy you enjoyed it! :))
6th-May-2016 05:54 am (UTC)
Finally watching now. Mostly, I think this is just ridiculous. I'm impressed that so many people loved it—for me, it's too silly and hamhanded to be anything but terrible TV. But hey, you gotta admit it makes Amara rather sympathetic. :D Maybe she can save us from this crap!

Sorry that it upset you. {{{{}}}} Hopefully with some distance it will seem less rage-inducing and more ridiculously stupid, which is where I'm at with it.

p.s. We'll always have Red Meat.

Edited at 2016-05-06 06:00 am (UTC)
6th-May-2016 07:11 am (UTC)
Hehe. It might help if I just see it as ridiculous. Chatting about it has helped reduce the rage a bit. :)

And yes! There will always be Red Meat. And quite a few other eps I can wallow in from this season. :)
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