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12.12 reaction 
19th-Feb-2017 09:30 pm
A mother's love
I know I shouldn't post this reaction because I really didn't like that episode but I feel the need to work out my thoughts so I'll put it here.

Please don't click and read if you loved it (and I know many did - I'm against the stride with this one *g*). I just feel like I'm getting closer and closer to being completely done.



I blame myself of course. Last week I was saying how much I'm enjoying the nostalgia and I've been saying how much I've loved what they are doing with Mary. I even said how much I have been enjoying this season. I'm not really sure how one episode changed all that for me. That episode left me angry and bitter and reminded me of the feelings I've had in the past with this show.

I'm overreacting of course, but I usually do when I feel this let down after an episode.

Up until now I have been enjoying Mary's journey. It's made so much sense to me - her feeling of not fitting in, her needing distance from her boys to understand herself, burying herself in hunting to feel connected etc. But her actions in this episode not only didn't make sense, they created an aspect of her character that I wasn't ready for.

She not only lied to her sons in order to get them involved in a hunt, she risked their lives for an object that she gave to people who tortured her son (and really? the colt? An object from the past that was SO important to the storylines. And now....Ugh). She also didn't come clean when their lives were threatened and she brushed Sam off when he asked after her. I almost thought she was possessed, but instead they have decided to create the usual "Winchester drama" by making her truly awful. Until now I could defend her characterisation - in fact I have a few times. I've loved the 3D characterisation and the (what looked like) exploration of motherhood. But nope. She went from someone who needed some time to someone who lied and betrayed the two people she needs to trust and should protect.

She also got a hunter killed (one that wasn't prepared for what he was facing) and she was prepared to let Cas die. Man, her priorities suddenly became very screwed up. Did I want Mary to be a good guy? You betchya. I wasn't at all prepared for her to be part of the "big bads" this season. :(

And the thing is...why? What made her side with her son's tortures over her sons? What made her think that killing all monsters is better than being loyal? What made her give over the colt after every thing that went down? Also, why weren't her reasons shown to us? Why not show us her journey to these decisions...

And yeah sure. It will be about her redeeming her mistakes but I'm just so over this direction - making people dicks and then they make some mighty sacrifice to make it all right. Either that or they'll follow the other Campbells and she'll just die and instead of feeling sad about that we'll be cheering.

Part of me hopes there is a major reveal about this (she's soulless maybe? Perhaps she's soul damaged? Not returned complete?), but I also know that it's more likely it's about redemption and I'm so done with that.

I am so angry in this direction (but I will forgive all if we get a really (really!) good reason for this).

I also found the dying Cas scenario tedious. Mainly because we knew he wasn't going to die but he got to make a cheesy death-bed speech nonetheless. I actually thought they were actually going to do it - kill him - but oh look at that! A miracle cure. I know this is because I have (sadly) lost any feelings for Cas. I really didn't care about his situation so it made it hard to watch. And damn that makes me sad. :(

Another thing that I found weird was that I would normally be ALL OVER a Tarantino homage. I love (most of) his films. In the beginning I was very excited by the direction but as the episode wore on it just annoyed me - especially the repeats of scenes we'd already seen. It also seemed to diffuse the tension (that and the music). This is a purely personal response and I do appreciate that an attempt was made to be creative and different.

I also should have been excited to see Mark back as Lucifer but by then I was too pissed off to care. I then thought why is he in Mark's suit again? I am assuming it's like Cas - he can somehow choose which suit he prefers.

Overall I just found it pretty tedious and annoying. I would have just brushed it off as an ep that didn't do it for me (which is actually ok with me these days - I accept there will be some eps in a season that I don't like) but it was what they did with Mary that had me steaming.

To be honest I think mostly I'm kinda just over it all. If I can't enjoy an episode with a lot of the regular side characters then I'm kinda doomed. We'll see. Give me a good reason for Mary and it will restore my faith.

I just hope they have a few more MoTW eps to come - more and more the myth arc eps - or the ones with Crowley, Cas and Rowena - are just not doing it for me. *unhappy sigh*

(Oh, on the positive side - Sam got to be badass and killed the demon (who wasn't actually bad until Mary stole from him) and Dean killed a demon to save Sam. The cafe scene was cute (when the camera stayed still) and there were some stunning cinematic moments. *g*)
Comments 
19th-Feb-2017 01:37 pm (UTC)
As usual, you've pretty much summed up how I was feeling - I hadn't got as far as dissecting Mary's actions because I was getting so distracted by the Tarantino devices, which totally broke up the storyline for me and like you say, negated any tension. But I did definitely think she was going to turn out to be possessed, she was behaving so oddly.

I didn't for a second think Cas was going to die, and his 'death' scene actually irritated me with it's awkward callback to Castiel's Leviathan hosting - all the black veins and black goo. Instead of worrying about him I was just thinking - oh really, you couldn't think of anything else to do for him 'rotting away'?

I'm annoyed by this episode because the last couple I'd really enjoyed. Let's hope this next one is a whole lot better!
19th-Feb-2017 01:49 pm (UTC)
Ah yes - I didn't connect the Leviathan death with this one.

IF he had actually died I could see why they gave him the "I love you - all of you" speech. I would have been fine with all of it - but instead I was eye rolling and thinking "you're all wasting your emotion, he's gonna be fine". (I know I'm a hypocrite because in Red Meat we knew Sam wouldn't be dead, but I was more than happy to see Dean's emotion over that).

I just want Mary's behaviour to be explained (not redeemed). With such a big leap (betraying her sons) I would love to see a really good explanation. I'm not holding my breathe on that one...

I'll always watch the next one in hope (though I saw the promo and more of the regular secondary characters so it might not be for me. We'll see...*g*)


19th-Feb-2017 01:41 pm (UTC)
I'm with you on all of this.I kinda knew I shouldn't watch I am done with episodes with the angel - because, as you say, tedious, but I loved the teaser. I have a feeling that this week is a Buckner, Ross-Leming in which case I will definitely be staying away.
19th-Feb-2017 01:53 pm (UTC)
I loved the promo for this ep! It was so well edited. I also enjoyed the teaser - so I thought we were in for a great ep. :)

Oh no! the Duo?! Damn. :/ Though at least I'll know so expectations will be so low I might even enjoy it.
19th-Feb-2017 02:05 pm (UTC)
Ditto to every single point. I'm on vacation with my sister and brother-in-law, so the latter watched it with me, though had never seen it before. And afterward, I had to explain:

I am really invested in the two main characters. There are some really good episodes that are so very satisfying to watch that I continue to follow the show and probably will till the end. Because the show isn't an anthology but follows a story arc, that means I have to watch the bad episodes too, just so I'll fully understand and appreciate where the characters are and their history over the season. Unfortunately, this was one of the latter kinds of eps.

I think I'm not AS frustrated as you, because I have pulled in the range of emotion SPN can evoke in me now. The lows aren't as low, but the highs aren't as high either. Show has gone from being a love affair to being on par with a workplace friendship in terms of my emotional engagement on an episodic basis.
19th-Feb-2017 02:09 pm (UTC)
Great description of my relationship with the show too. Or maybe it's more like the lover you now live with and see all their irritating habits. You tolerate them because you do still love them, but the passion has died down.
19th-Feb-2017 02:28 pm (UTC)
hells_half_acre had a fascinating analysis of why Mary is trusting the BMoL--I am copying it here:

I do wonder about her psychology a little and the fact that she's trying out this situation where she's basically directed where to go by the UKMoL. It occurred to me, while I watched, that the last time Mary hunted, she was very much under the direction of her authoritarian father.... I mean, YES, she hunted a little bit after her and John got together too, but I think the bulk of her hunting was done as a teen under her father's command. I wonder if there's something appealing to her, familiar, about having orders to follow. Like... Dean is sort of that way, or used to be. He took comfort in John's orders, and a lot of him falling apart after John's death was him trying to cope with that loss of security in knowing what to do... it's why he briefly was seduced by Gordon.... anyway, those are just some thoughts I had, not sure if they hold water or not.

Don't know if that helps at all...

I think Mary is very gullible. She hasn't been around for 30 years and really doesn't understand what has happened in the world, both hunting and non-hunting. I doubt the boys went into detail about what they've done, partly because she was distressed that they had become hunters, so why upset her more with just how much awful stuff they have lived (and died) through. From the way she said to Ketch that her father told her stories about the colt, she didn't know her sons had actually used it. How much would the boys have gone into detail about when they used it? I can imagine Dean saying 'I killed yellow-eyes' without adding 'with this magical gun.'

The one part of Mary's behavior I have an issue with is forgiving the BMoL for what Lady Toni did to Sam. But I go back to gullible...Mary as a hunter knows about monsters, but we don't know about her real-life experiences during her years with John. She probably tried to be a 'normal' young mother and didn't have experience with duplicitous humans, so she's more trusting than she should be. I'm sure the BMoL apologized profusely for Lady Toni going off the rails, and Mary bought it...and that leads to hell's point above.

Hell's complete review is here http://hells-half-acre.livejournal.com/495791.html She also has a really good analysis about Crowley's performance as king of hell based on what we now see as how he got the position.

Edited at 2017-02-19 02:49 pm (UTC)
20th-Feb-2017 11:29 am (UTC)
Oh thanks for this link, that looks like an interesting read!
19th-Feb-2017 06:41 pm (UTC)
I'm probably being totally naive here, but I'm wondering if Mary thinks she can find and destroy Lucifer's love child as a way to make up for not being there for Sam & Dean when they needed her. Did she really give the colt to Mr. Ketch? I had to rewatch that scene to be sure, but it seems like they left that point deliberately vague. Maybe she read the Carver Edlund novels on-line (obviously she knew Dean was in Hell so she has to know all about everything that happened to them by now) and found out that the colt was real, then made the MoLUK find it for her. Maybe she's playing them, or at least using them, to redeem herself with her sons by "doing something useful".

None of which explains why she was willing to put them in so much danger. As a mother, I cannot imagine working with people who kidnapped and tortured my kid, no matter how useful they might be. But of course if she thinks of them as a means to an end, the way Sam and Dean think of Crowley from time to time...

I guess I'm just curious to see how they'll explain what seems to be inexcusable behavior. They must be aware that most of us find Mary's behavior despicable.

Edited at 2017-02-19 06:45 pm (UTC)
20th-Feb-2017 11:32 am (UTC)
I'm hoping they aren't trying to make her more like her father than the woman she appeared to be becoming from the snippets of her life we'd seen up till now. Samuel Campbell was willing to sacrifice family as a means to an end, particularly when they were essentially family he didn't know. "What exactly are you to me?" he asked Dean at one point - these were his grandsons but he was dead before they were even conceived and never knew them like he knew Mary.
19th-Feb-2017 07:17 pm (UTC)
I liked the ep, even though I don't like what they're doing with Mary. I've had issues with her storyline since the beginning of this season (though I've liked some of her scenes), so my expectations for Mary are pretty low. It bothers me, but my main reason for watching the show is Sam and Dean, not the side characters.

20th-Feb-2017 11:40 am (UTC)
It bothers me, but my main reason for watching the show is Sam and Dean, not the side characters.

Me too! I suppose I just thought it was very Sam and Dean light - there were some good moments but it was really a Cas, Mary and Crowley ep (with guest appearances by Sam and Dean) so it wasn't my thing. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
20th-Feb-2017 05:55 am (UTC)
I always love reading your thinky thoughts even when I did like an episode. I'm trying like hell to make sense out of what's happening with Mary, but I admit to still being befuddled. I did think this was a well crafted and directed episode though - it sort of made my head spin, but not in a bad way. I'm nervous about what we'll find out next about Mary though...
20th-Feb-2017 11:44 am (UTC)
Hey there!

I always love reading your thinky thoughts even when I did like an episode.

Ha! I ramble (compared to your thoughtful reviews...*g*).

I have to admit that clearly the passion is still in me or I wouldn't have felt so annoyed. I'd rather just shrug it off when I don't like an ep (which I mostly do now) but for them to character-assassinate someone I was really enjoying just got me fuming.

The next few Mary eps will (should) be telling...
20th-Feb-2017 01:28 pm (UTC)
I loved this Tarantino style episode! I was entertained, and it was fast and exciting, and it felt refreshing and bad ass for an SPN episode. But what works for one person, doesn't always work for another, and I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy it.

I'm with you on Mary. I am struggling with her direction a little, she did seem very closed off and 'all business' here, which I guess she was on a hunt, but still, I've been craving some more family Winchester moments, old stories about the boys and John etc. Doesn't look like we're getting that. Maybe she's working with BMOL to rid USA of supernatural things so that then her sons don't have to hunt any more? I don't know. Like others have said, I hope she has a ulterior motive or something, or maybe like you say it's her turn to tell lies, and keep secrets to add some tension and drama (I mean over the years we've had Sam, Dean and Cas do it!) I don't especially like that idea, but there is a part of me that is relieved that it's not Sam and Dean keeping something from each other, but it does look like they're going to end up getting hurt over it; one way or another.

Take care and I'll keep my fingers crossed that it'll all make sense the further we get into the season *hugs*
21st-Feb-2017 10:17 am (UTC)
But what works for one person, doesn't always work for another

Very much so! :)

Maybe she's working with BMOL to rid USA of supernatural things so that then her sons don't have to hunt any more? I don't know.

I saw this idea on Twitter also and I like it as something Mary might want - I just think that if it was what she was thinking we'd get some clue to that (?) Maybe it's in an upcoming episode....:)

but there is a part of me that is relieved that it's not Sam and Dean keeping something from each other,

Oh me too! That is a huge relief. It's also why I think they're doing this. Nearly every season someone close to them if it's not each other) is somehow deceiving them. It's part of the way SPN works it seems. ;)


20th-Feb-2017 01:45 pm (UTC)
PART ONE: So apparently I've rambled too much to fit this all into one comment. Sorry.

I know I shouldn't post this reaction because I really didn't like that episode but I feel the need to work out my thoughts so I'll put it here.

You should never feel like you shouldn't post something just because its negative -hugs-. I know I always enjoy reading your thoughts whether its happiness, sadness, something I agree with or disagree with :).

Up until now I have been enjoying Mary's journey. It's made so much sense to me - her feeling of not fitting in, her needing distance from her boys to understand herself, burying herself in hunting to feel connected etc. But her actions in this episode not only didn't make sense, they created an aspect of her character that I wasn't ready for.

Not that it excuses her actions, but I personally would't lay the blame for Wally's death with her, at least not in a malicious sense. I think the end scene showed us that Mary genuinely believed that they were on the hunt for a regular run of the mill demon. She provided Wally with the information she had access to, and he made the decision to join them in spite of his inexperience. Of course that information was incomplete, but I don't think the blame for that lies with Mary.

I personally don't think it can be said her decision could be described as allowing Castiel to die either. At this point in time, as far as the Winchester's knew there was no cure for the Lancel's effects and Castiel was destined to die regardless of whether she handed the colt over or not.

However, what she did do was much, much worse because I completely agree with you that she put Sam and Dean's lives at risk for the sake of helping the British Man of Letter's. She chose to keep her secret over protecting the lives of her sons. What's even worse is that she held the weapon that could have killed Ramiel in her hands. The Colt had already killed Azazel. It could have killed Ramiel just as easily. I really can't think of a positive reason for her decision here. I've seen some speculation online that perhaps she wants to make a better life for Sam and Dean, that she wants to end their hunting by helping the BMoL's rid America of Monsters. However, that doesn't work for me because how would they get to enjoy this world if they're already dead?

In addition to this, my heart broke for Sam in their earlier scene. I am trying to decide if the show runners were trying to go for "butch Winchester" who doesn't want a chick flick moment, or they just want to make her a plain old bitch. Either way, I had little sympathy for her in this scene, which is sad because I felt empathy for her when she spoke of her struggles in The Foundry, and like yourself, I respected her motivations to date. At the moment I am sitting on the fence in terms of whether this is a good story-line or not. I want to wait and see if they later provide an explanation for her behaviour that fit. Who knows maybe they'll do a rehash of Soulless Sam and make it so that Amara brought her back wrong. If they don't, and they've just opted to make Mary an antagonist, then I'm going to assume its most likely due to series formula. The "needing to discover herself" excuse could only be used to keep her away from the boys for a certain amount of time and so they've went in this direction to explain why she never moves into the bunker, or at least to the nearest town, in order to get to know her boys and spend lots of time with them.

Edited at 2017-02-20 02:57 pm (UTC)
21st-Feb-2017 10:34 am (UTC)
Hi!

but I personally would't lay the blame for Wally's death with her, at least not in a malicious sense

Yeah. Good point. I think I was thinking more about the fact that she involved him in the hunt even though he wasn't familiar with demons - and that she only involved him so she should get Sam and Dean to join in the hunt (though I'll have to look back on this because I'm sure they would have helped her no matter what the hunt was). I know she wasn't given the full info on the hunt so she wasn't malicious in his death, I agree.

In addition to this, my heart broke for Sam in their earlier scene.

Oh me too. It was so sad - Sam has really been on her side since she came back and she completely brushed him off. In early episodes she at least reached out to them - now she doesn't want to reassure them or anything. It's what makes me wonder what has happened to her from the last episodes to this one. Purely from her contact with NMoL? Maybe. Sad if it's true (but very likely because she's spent some time with them now).
20th-Feb-2017 01:52 pm (UTC)
PART 2

I also found the dying Cas scenario tedious. Mainly because we knew he wasn't going to die but he got to make a cheesy death-bed speech nonetheless.(

This episode and the heartfelt death-bed speech have cemented my view that Castiel / Misha Collins will be gone by the end of the season. I know most consider him to be a safe character (and will celebrate or bemoan the fact depending on how they feel about Cas), but I have always disagreed. As much as I am a fan of Cas the only truly safe cast members are Jensen and Jared and everyone else is expandable. All the signs are pointing towards his exit this season.

Firstly, there's the credit change. It seemed like a minor change to me, to be honest I didn't even notice it until a friend mentioned it, but apparently having an "and Misha Collins" type credit is a massive boost to the resume of an actor. Misha's role on the show hasn't changed this year so why the sudden change? I wouldn't be surprised if it was organised as a favour to Misha to help him when seeking new roles for next season.

Secondly, Dabb has chosen to give him three centric episodes this year 12x10, this weeks episode and 12x19. Personally I wouldn't consider either episode to be especially Castiel centric. Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets focused on the story of Lily, which happened to feature a cameo from Castiel. This weeks episode was an ensemble piece where everyone had a part to play. However, Dabb has described them as Castiel centric so he clearly thinks of them as such. This change too is rather unexpected. The last Castiel centric episode we had was season six's The Man Who Would Be King. Why are we getting three of them all of a sudden? This, for me, is too good to be true. I think the most likely explanation is they want to give Misha plenty to do before he goes.

Thirdly, the narrative itself is pointing towards his exit. During First Blood there was a clear emphasis on the fact that Castiel believes the Winchesters are more essential to the fate of the world than he is. In my opinion this is a clear foreshadow of him later sacrificing himself so that they might live.

Fourthly, they're taking alot of time to show us how much he has changed since Lazarus Rising. When we first meet him Castiel was a detached warrior of God. He had no particular investment in events and was solely focused on what he perceived as his duty to the greater good. We also know because of his soldier mission that Castiel was not one for owning up to his own actions as he was a follower. However, they are now showing us just how different Castiel has become. Castiel has become someone who is deeply invested in protecting the world and keeping those he views as family safe. This is shown through his speeches in First Blood and Stuck in the Middle (With You). Castiel is someone who is willing to be held accountable for his past actions, as shown when he holds his hands up and admits the wrong he did to Lily. He was even willing to die if it helped ease her pain. Castiel is now someone who is interested in protecting the individual and no longer believes that a minor loss is as acceptable in the face of the greater good hence his desire to find a different way when they track down Kelly Klein. Again why the sudden need to empathise his changes to date unless its a reminder of his journey throughout the show before his death.

Fifthly, the fact that this weeks speech changed. Personally this is what has convinced me that Castiel will be dead by the end of the season. Bearing in mind the above, it reads to me as a form of closure for those like myself who are fans of his. I think when they do kill him off it will happen in an abrupt manner. There won't be time for goodbyes and heartfelt declarations, so Castiel's fans were given this instead.

Of course I could prove to be entirely wrong, but I just thought I'd share some speculations on why the speech occurred in this weeks episode :).

Edited at 2017-02-20 01:57 pm (UTC)
21st-Feb-2017 10:50 am (UTC)
This episode and the heartfelt death-bed speech have cemented my view that Castiel / Misha Collins will be gone by the end of the season.

Oh wow! I never even considered that. I just can't imagine them killing him off. I think they should - they seem to be running dry on ideas for him - but I just don't think they will (the uproar will be deafening). IF they do kill him off then I will take back my comment - I give a pass to cheesy sentiments if it's their exit speech.

All your reasons are very convincing. To be honest I haven't been paying that much attention - but your points seem very valid. If (and when) they do kill him off (or let him permanently depart) it would be great to get a fitting farewell- which I'm sure they'll do. They are pretty good at that.

But I would truly be shocked if they do (though maybe it will be a season ender - leaving fans to wonder if he is dead or not.


20th-Feb-2017 01:52 pm (UTC)
PART 3

(Oh, on the positive side - Sam got to be badass and killed the demon (who wasn't actually bad until Mary stole from him) and Dean killed a demon to save Sam. The cafe scene was cute (when the camera stayed still) and there were some stunning cinematic moments. *g*)

I agree that those were particularly enjoyable scenes :)
21st-Feb-2017 09:52 am (UTC)
I so understand your feelings, for I'm the same.
The writers seem to be taking the focus of the show away from the Winchesters to concentrate on secondary characters. Of course that's been going on since season eight, but now it's blatant.

The ret-conning that's been going on with past canon and 'historical' characters such as Mary, has been stretched to the limit and this for me, dampens all my enthusiasm for the show.
As for Mary, I could understand her confusion at being resurrected in an era which isn't hers. I could even go with the fact of finding herself with two grown hunter sons, while she remembers them as babies, and therefore difficult to relate to. But being cold towards them while Sam and Dean are trying their best to be the sons she wants, and then working with the BMOL who tortured one of her sons and were ready to do the same to Dean, is unacceptable.

I can't understand where the writers are trying to take this.
John might have been an imperfect father, but I always got the impression that he loved his boys.

Maybe Mary's going down the same road as Samuel.
Mother in the flesh, but not feeling the love she should for her children. I would hate for Sam or Dean to have to take her out, adding even more angst to their consciences.

As for Castiel and the angels, I'm not gonna waste any words for characters that should have been killed off long ago. If secondary characters are needed to pad out the episode, then I'm sure TPTB could come up with something better.

I only watch for Sam and Dean, but it's getting difficult to wade though the stale secondary characters to get a glimpse of the brothers, of whom the writers seem to take pleasure in denying them, and us any brother hugs or emotional moments, and preferring to cut brotherly glances in favour of uninteresting and over the top Castiel fan-service.
best regards. :)
21st-Feb-2017 11:02 am (UTC)
The writers seem to be taking the focus of the show away from the Winchesters to concentrate on secondary characters.

Yeah, they have been doing that for a while. The Js are in a position to demand more time off so they've had to write in other characters in order for them to have that. Sometimes I don't mind (yay Jodie!) but the characters they're focussing on now just don't interest me. Sadly. I want them to because I will always watch the show - I just want to be interested in what's going on when the focus isn't on Sam and Dean.

I would hate for Sam or Dean to have to take her out, adding even more angst to their consciences.

Oh ouch. I hadn't even contemplated that. That would be awful. :(

Thanks for dropping in.
21st-Feb-2017 02:12 pm (UTC)
As a Tarantino fan, I was so excited for this ep especially in the beginning when they did the diner scene because it *looked like it would be a characterization heavy episode meaning some insight into their motivations aka dialogue heavy scenes, but nope. Ive always enjoyed the out of sequence shots and I liked that part, but like you, Cas bores me to tears and I thought it was super gross when all that black goo was coming out of his mouth--ick.

I haven't heard anyone talk about the throwaway line that Dean made while eating when asked why he didn't trust the BMOL? and he said besides trying to kill my little brother? Huge foreshadowing to Marys ridiculous treason. Can we just bring up that Mary basically started all this by selling Sam to the YED in exchange for bringing back John from the dead? how has nobody called her on this? I too am just about done with her storyline-I don't know if its because of the flat way the actress delivers her lines? or the stupid inane plotting? but Im just waiting to see how they kill her off. My friend and I have a bet that she becomes the next Lucifer meat suit at the end of the season... I think they need to commit to a scenario with her. Either she is misunderstood or shes a dumb itch, and go with it. this waffling or tepid characterization is just pissing everyone off. oh, and can we PLEASE move Supernatural to a cable station? after 12 years the G rated level of this show is starting to grate
21st-Feb-2017 02:55 pm (UTC)
My friend and I have a bet that she becomes the next Lucifer meat suit at the end of the season...

Sorry to interrupt, but this got me thinking; what if they made her a perfect back up Lucifer vessel? We know from season 5 that the Winchester bloodline is the Michael bloodline, which was why he was able to possess John and Adam.

What if the Campbell's were the Lucifer bloodline? It would explain why the cupids pushed John and Mary together, so they'd produce a kid for each angel and fulfil the whole "as it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth" criteria.

I think if they went down this route that could be an interesting twist, which wouldn't contradict existing canon. At least I don't think it would, but it has been a while since I watched season 5.
22nd-Feb-2017 01:10 am (UTC)
I hadn't thought of Tarentino in terms of the storytelling device they used as I've seen it used elsewhere but I'm fairly sure they never used it in SPN before, which made the episode feel different.

What made her think that killing all monsters is better than being loyal?

My assumption was that it's because she wants to get her sons out of the hunting life and thinks this is a way to do it. I don't know that she realizes what hunters' lives are like in the UK, how they're treated like canon fodder, and I'm also assuming it's never really been tried in the U.S. So I'm thinking that she hopes that it's a new approach, something she as a sort of outsider can do for them. I don't think it's for herself, really, since she seems ready to die.

Having watched Buffy, I see Mary very much as Buffy in S6, with the same sort of emotional disconnect and, possibly, a similar sort of journey in this season. Of course, a lot of people hated S6 Buffy!

Then there's the issue of the yellow eyed demon and its significance. Because to Mary, that would surely be the signal of everything that had gone wrong in her life, of the wrong decision she made to try and escape her future as a hunter. She made a deal with Azazel to save John's life, hoping to keep them all out of the same box she found herself in. And now, she's made a deal with the MoL to try and fix things again, but it's clearly going to turn out no better.

Speaking of which, shouldn't Mary recognize Dean from his time traveling self when he first met her, (as well as both Sam and Dean from when they time traveled to meet her and John?) I don't recall this being mentioned at all, yet the Colt played an important role in that episode as well.

I actually found the episode rather interesting overall. I didn't know what Mary was up to. I didn't know who the demon was or his significance. The reveal of the Colt as the stolen item at the end was a surprise (and a misdirect, I thought, because it never glowed before). We got the backstory of how Crowley came to be the king of hell (and I was surprised by his appearance). We had him actually putting himself out for Castiel's sake. In short, except for Castiel being saved the episode wasn't as predictable as most.

It seems to me that motherhood is going to be a key theme this season, not just because of Mary but because of the nephilim. And I suspect there's going to be some sort of contrast set up there about connections to children and making the wrong sorts of decisions as a result.
22nd-Feb-2017 01:03 pm (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for your thinky :)

My assumption was that it's because she wants to get her sons out of the hunting life and thinks this is a way to do it.

I have seen this theory a few times now and I'm curious about how so many have come to this conclusion considering we've been given no indication that this is what she's thinking. It certainly makes some sense and I like the idea but aside from hearing the BMoL sales pitch we've not seen her commit to it to save her sons (and after watching her squirm out of not revealing she had stolen the colt I'm not sure how commit she is to saving her sons? /still bitter about that).

Of course, a lot of people hated S6 Buffy!

eek! Can't comment on that because (believe it or not) I never watched Buffy.

Because to Mary, that would surely be the signal of everything that had gone wrong in her life,

See. This! I think having a Yellow Eyed Demon is very significant and I will have to be patient to see if there is real follow through. And you could be right in the parallel between the deal she made with YED and now the BMoL. I suppose I just didn't want her to keep making these mistakes? But maybe this is about recognising that making these kind of deals don't work. Her sons have had to learn that lesson - maybe this is her way of learning the hard way.

Speaking of which, shouldn't Mary recognize Dean from his time traveling self when he first met her,

Hmmm, I'd have to check but I think either her mind was wiped or there was some explanation at the time for her not remembering meeting her son (or being warned about what was to come before hand). I can't remember.

In short, except for Castiel being saved the episode wasn't as predictable as most.

True - and possibly I have been hard on it because I was a) not particularly engaged (Crowley's storyline just doesn't interest me at all unfortunately) and b) I wasn't ready for Mary's actions. I hope in hindsight I will see this bigger picture. I just know with this show I have been burned so many times when feeling hopeful (I will never forgive S9) that I'm not convinced there heading in a significant direction. I want to be wrong!!!

It seems to me that motherhood is going to be a key theme this season, not just because of Mary but because of the nephilim.

Ah, interesting observation. I can see that and I'm good with it. In fact the Asa Fox episode was a motherhood one too. Oooh, even Toni is a mother. And some of the MoTW eps were based on motherhood I seem to remember (mothers losing children etc). Ok, I'm sold on that idea. I will be watching with that in mind now. ;)

Thanks
x
22nd-Feb-2017 04:43 am (UTC)
t will be about her redeeming her mistakes but I'm just so over this direction - making people dicks and then they make some mighty sacrifice to make it all right. SIGH. I know :/

Yeah, I think honestly, I'm staying for the BRO moments - the fun scenes like the cafe, the Sammy, the badassery, those things. Because that's the only thing making me watch. Otherwise I'm usually 'wtf is happening on this thing' haha

I was really enjoying Mary, too! But when I saw her listening to the British dude's schtick, I knew I wouldn't like the direction they're going in.

Edited at 2017-02-22 04:43 am (UTC)
22nd-Feb-2017 01:05 pm (UTC)
Hi!

Yeah, seeing Mary getting hooked on the BMoL sales pitch was hard going - let alone her giving over the Colt after being betrayed by them. I hope this means something in the end...
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